One Trinitarain from a blog called Day of reckoning wrote the following to whom I will assign *TB* for *trinity believer* and answer his unscriptual assumptions.
TB:(110-140AD). *
Polycarp 0:1 Polycarp and the Elders with him to the Church of God sojourning in Philippi; mercy and peace from God Almighty and Jesus Christ our Saviour be multiplied to you.
mlculwell: If Polycarp who supposedly sat directly under the Apostle John who famously wrote John's Gospel the epistles under his name and the book of Revelation. If Polycarp were a trinitarain he most certainly would not start a letter off by stating: Almighty God and in addition to that Almighty God as seen by the conjunction *and* Jesus Christ our savior. An Arian or Oneness believer could just as well make the same claim. Polycarp who was not one of the canonized writers of the 66 books we know as the bible which is the all sufficient rule of our faith given by God. of course this something the trinity folk always fail to tell you when they quote the so called fathers.
TB:Polycarp 1:1 1 I rejoice greatly with you in our Lord Jesus Christ that you have followed the pattern of true love, and have helped on their way, as opportunity was given you, those who were bound in chains, which become the saints, and are the diadems of those who have been truly chosen by God and our Lord.
mlculwell: Nothing in this that would lead us to believe this was trinitarain either. The son who was the flesh of God(The father John 14:10) in the incarnation paid for our salvation through his real humanity.(1st Cor. 15:21) "God the son" could not pay for anything as he would not be our kinsmen redeemer.
TB:Polycarp 6:2 2 If then we pray the Lord to forgive us, we also ought to forgive, for we stand before the eyes of the Lord and of God and "we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, and each must give an account of himself."
mlculwell: How many Lords are there? The writer Polycarp, I believe is making a real distinction between the flesh of the son who purchased us with his real humanity and his deity Lord through the sacrificial flesh in the incarnation and that which indwelt the flesh God the father. The distinction must be made as God cannot purchase anyone's salvation without a blood sacrifice that sacrifice being made through his flesh the son. Nothing above would lead me to believe Polycarp was a trinitarain, Like I said before he could just have easily been Oneness or Arian, But of course the doctrine of the trinity really did not exist nor was it taught by the Apostles.
TB:Polycarp 12:2 Now may God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the "eternal Priest" himself, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, build you up in faith and truth, and in all gentleness, and without wrath, and in patience, and in long suffering, and endurance, and purity, and may he give you lot and part with his saints, and to us with you, and to all under heaven who shall believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his "Father who raised him from the dead."
I think it is safe to say that Polycarp was a Trinitarian.
mlculwell: There is absolutely nothing from the following that leads anyone to believe such nonsense especially since the conjunction *and* would separate the father from God and our Lord Jesus Christ and that would be the argument our trinity friends would try and make but it is a rather silly argument as that would make the father and our Lord Jesus Christ Outside of God because of the conjunction. The truth is there is nothing said by Polycarp to lead anyone to believe he was at all trinitarain and that he was more than likely Oneness but we do not need Polycarp's writings as our rule of faith in the first place as we have the all sufficient scriptures inspired of God.
7 comments:
Manny - ask him where the Third God is? The Spirit, as they say - all I got was a reference to John Edwards in the 18th Century. Did it really take 1700 years for the Spirit to be recognized? Hardly co-equal if you ask me.
Let me also say that I think you hit the nail on the head when you focus on the distinction between the earthly and the heavenly.
Well you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven but if you blaspheme the holy spirit you will not be forgiven in this life or the next. I would say it pretty clear the holy spirit isn't less, it's also called the spirit of God, the spirit of the father, the spirit of the son, and the spirit of truth, and you can pray in the Name of the father, son, and holy spirit, that worship, God said you can only worship God alone
The holy spirit is also called the spirit of God, and the spirit of the son, and spirit of God, spirit of truth, how can you be the spirit of God and not be God?, also you can blaspheme the father and the son and be forgiven, but if you blaspheme the holy spirit you will not be forgiven in this life or in the next.
It don't matter how long it would take, the bible recognizes the holy spirit, can't have an earlier source than that, anyway that's not true
You can't be the Son of God and not be equal in deity, humans have humans, animals have animals, God had God, eternally begotten of the father, without him nothing was made that was made, if Jesus Christ was made that would be a contradiction or a lie, it doesn't say without him nothing was made that was made except the son. So if the son was not eternal as also the holy spirit,....than what was God before their creation? Love?...nope for love for who?...himself?...nope for what gave love the meaning?, Because nothing was made that was made without him, God couldn't have a means of anything for nothing exist to give any purpose to anything, that makes God's existence impossible without the son, and seeing that we exist means God exists, and if the bible is the word of God, than Jesus Christ is eternal as the word of God but distinct from the father as shown throughout the bible, God said "let US create man in OUR image" notice Us is not talking to angels, US create means more than one creating, OUR image is that OUR is plural while image is singular, so more than one in distinction of one another but with the same exact image, this fits perfectly with in the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, he was in the beginning with God, notice in the beginning WAS the word, WAS means already existed before the beginning, but on top of this there is only one true God the father, I agree, but understanding the rest is better understood if your gifted with philosophy, but all you need is theology and not to deny a single verse, no verse trumps another, it is the perfect puzzle of what is reality
Jesus is bnot God because he inherited a God Michael. Jesus is God because he was given the spirit by no measure as a genuine man in the incarnation.(John 3:34,14:9-10) Jesus was made both Lord and Christ.(Acts 2:36) because his humanity had origin the virgine birth. You are only thinking of One side his divinity pre-existed but his divinity was not the son it was the Father.(John 14:10) When the fullness of time was come God sent forth his son(Uh Oh?) Made of a woman made under the Law.(Gal.4:4) Hewas sent the exact same way his disciples were (John 17:18) Your Love theory is philosophy whyere your religion came from. The word comes from the breath of God's mouth(Psalm 33:6 Septuagint) The word/Logos from God's mouth cannot be a persons known as the son! The Holy Spirit is God's title as he deals with mankind and is not another person of God. scripture teaches God is spirit.(John 4:24) Which God? God is holy(Psalm 99:9) which God is Holy? trinity doctrine is thoughtless drivel and it contradicts all of scripture.
Gen. 1:26 when God used the plural pronouns Let us make man in our image. God had no visble Image that we could see him. Jesus is the image of the invisble God. So God Made man in the image of his coming incarnation is what God was talking about when he said let us make man! He was including the coming son in the incarnation.That is what Romans 5:14 say: Adam who was the figure of Him(Jesus) that was to come. This clearly says he was not back there but coming. You trinitarains you confuse the incarnation of the genuine man Jesus. Paul makes that distintion in 1st Tim 2:5 when he says ther is one mediator between God and man, the man christ jesus. Paul was clearly Oneness and makes the same distinction Oneness makes because he was Oneneness and not trinity! No God was not talking to the Angels and he was not talking to other persons of God either. This was spoken for us in the angels presence. Trinity is a perfect contradiction of the word of God!
You highlight another trinity contradiction In John 1:1 where you says Jesus was the word with God. Why was not the word with jesus as God? I thought Jesus was God? You have too many gods. There was one God whose spoken creative power was with him and he could not be seperated from. In the Judgemnt jesus is that God in flesh who weilds that power as a sword that comes out of his mouth. I deal with Michael Burgos on this very point on my blog look it up. trinity doctrine is not one God and it is the same flase doctrine as the hindu three persons who are three gods and you have no defence against polytheism with it. The majority have bought inot it and are on the broad path that leads to destruction with it. The trinity is nothing but confusion and comes from vain philosophy of men.
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