Revised A total lack of common sense. We were chosen in him from the foundation of the world

I had to add this post script revision since he(faithful witness) has answered me on his blog **Day Of Reckoning** This has more to do with the false doctrine of individual election than with Oneness versus the trinity which is fine with me.


FW:writes on his blog: Oh my. This is silly. Manuel, it was the Father who foreknew the Son.

mlculwell; LOL! "The father and son are supposed to be God" are they not? You would think God would foreknow of himself? This is the the blatant contradictions of the doctrine of the trinity. God foreknew the humanity of the son which is the son in the incarnation that God the father indwelt in said incarnation(John 14:10)



FW:It was also the forknown soverign plan of the Father that the Son obeyed in becoming a man and completing the atonement.

mlculwell: So God was smart enough to foreknow that 1/3 of himself would obey himself and go down to mankind more nonsense of the trinity doctrine.


FW: God's elect were forknown before the foundation of the world. I find it somewhat amazing that you are engaging in an debate about foreknowledge with a Calvanist.

mlculwell: LOL! The elect are not elected because they are random individuals. The election is based on God foreknowing their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being in him through the preaching of the Gospel.

FW: Ever consider a career in comedy? Perhaps you should write a comedic novel with a science fiction twist.

mlculwell; The real comedy is your false doctrine of Calvinism and the trinity.

FW:Acts 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.(esv)

mlculwell: The plan/Logos of God you know very well refers to the sacrifice of the son which is Grace(God giving) grace is not anything less! predestination and foreknowledge are both scriptual doctrines the Calvinist take on them are not scriptual!

FW:Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,(esv)

mlculwell: We are chosen in him not apart from, we only get in him through hearing the preaching and our response to the Gospel(Romans 10;8-17) which resembles nothing of the Reformed doctrine in any way shape or form.


FW:Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.(esv)

mlculwell: All you are doing is proof texting with no comment as we read the same passages. You are quoting texts you think help you and they do not! Paul already shows us how we are predestined and foreknown by being in him according to our response to the preaching of the gospel you read your doctrine into the text.



FW:1Peter 1:1-2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who are elect exiles of the dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (esv)

mlculwell: Obedience does not help your cause and is as far from your doctrine as the north pole is from a goose neck! Grace is God Giving his only begotten son he gave for all man to accept or reject you do not think God is strong enough or powerful enough to give man a free will and that we can somehow over throw God by him doing so!

I do not blame you for not wanting to argue for your false doctrine of the trinity though you could not do any good on the subject so you which but that is fine I will be happy to take you to task with the scriptures on that subject also.

FW:Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. (esv)
All who are saved are forknown.

mlculwell: Choosing us in him has nothing to do with individuals being chosen over another you have pompously inserted that false doctrine in the text. we get into him by hearing the word preached(Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God) that is how God gives mankind faith not by some magical Calvinistic nonsense. Grace is God allowing us access to himself through the sacrifice of his son(The sinless flesh of Jesus 1st. Cor. 15:21) we cannot be saved by God the son!


FW:
Nope, not this one either. Well Manuel, the only thing I can suggest is that you either learn to read Greek or you get a better bible. Your older translation is wrong, nearly every scholar and translator will agree. "Before the foundation of the world" can only modify "written" because of 17:8. Perhaps the moral of the day is, don't base your theology on a single verse taken from it's context.
Oh, wait a minute. Manuel has responded. Lets see what he says now. . .


mlculwell: I have argued this point many times FW with JW's and trinitarains and you offer nothing that I have not heard before or have not argued before I simply have to go over the same areas you are not familiar with by you submitting such nonsense, did you forget (1st. Peter 1:19-20)???? it looks as though you have, same thing I have had to go over with the JW's who think themselves more intellectual than they really are, as do you.
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FW:Ok. Lets look at the 1 Pet text.
1Peter 1:19-20 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you (esv)

mlculwell: Can you imagine? The ESV has single handidly destroyed the doctrine of the trinity! LOL! Take the phrase **"he was foreknown before the foundation of the world."** I would think that since he was "god the son" that God would know of himself??? Was that not just genius of the ESV? Further those who did not exist were foreknown also? There being written in the book of Life was predicated on the slaying of the humanity and them being in Him. There is absolutely no way around the blood and faithful witness is trying really hard to hide in plain site but he is failing miserably. This seems to be the hallmark of the Reformed who think they can get around the blood of the Lamb which is the grace of God, all the faith in the world cannot get you anything without the shed blood.(His grace)We were chosen in him, meaning his sacrifice.


FW:Well Manuel, I don't see anything here about the Lamb being slain before the foundation of the world either. This says that Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world, not slain.

mlculwell: Of course you don't you are not using any common sense I have ran into this problem with you folks many times who think more highly of yourselves than you should. It is very clear you are giving zero thought to my argument and looking very foolish in process. We are saved by his life both the giving off and the resurrection of, you must have both or have neither! without shedding of blood is no remission of sins so then how are we chosen in him from the foundation of the world? The KJB used great foresight in doing the work and stating the great truth "the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" that you clearly lack in trying to appear intellectual.



mlculwell; First of all if anyone's name was added from the foundation of the world it was all based upon the slaying of the lamb in sacrifice(1st. Cor. 15:21) you show yourself a complete lack of any and all common sense. Let's see what real experts say about the matter? Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
1 Corinthians 15:21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.(esv)

FW:Those whose names that are in the Lamb's book of life are written there because of the sovereign choosing of the Father (Romans 8:28-30).

mlculwell: Absolutely not! You are living in a fairy tale world! It is not because Some are on a saved list and others are not, because of your nonsense Calvinism! We were chosen in him from the foundation of the world, not randomly based on God simply choosing, you miss everything, not only do you want to by pass Jesus sacrifice but our response to the preaching of the Gospel because of the grace(Jesus sacrifice) given.

You submit a passage(Romans 8:30) that make Calvinist's look very ignorant in their interpretation, because in trying to proof text you again bypass the process you simply see that *God predestined* and he did but it was based on our being in Christ we were not chosen as individuals but chosen in him according to our response to the gospel you mistakenly add that we were chosen as individuals over another individual bypassing the Grace(Jesus sacrifice) and the preaching of the Gospel.

(Romans 10:16-17) They have not all obeyed the Gospel. so then faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. whose soever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.(Romans 10:13) You cannot just call on him! Paul said you must call on him the way a man sent of God tells you to call.
(Romans 10:14)

Jesus said the same thing(John 17:20)Neither pray I for these alone,but for them also that shall believe on me through their word. who is Jesus talking about? Who are the "their word"? Is it the Reformed preacher? No! Jesus was talking about the message his disciples were given to preach and it looks nothing like what the Reformed preach!

Jesus said: that repentance and remission of sins be preached in my name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem.(Luke 24:47)

He preached Peters message from (Acts 2:38) almost verbatim showing us what the true message would look like. He also refuted the notion that mental assent(The Reformed view of faith or belief) By adding the conjunction *and* between repentance and remission of sins letting us know by common sense that one who repents must have already believed thereby the conjunction and adding remission in addition to belief and apart from refuting the false notion.

Paul also refutes the notion by asking the question in (Acts 19:2) Have you received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? The answer would be ridiculous according to the Reformed view and would have been understood by Paul.

If that is not enough Jesus cuts the head clean off of the false doctrine by saying to his future Apostles whose soever sins you remit, the are remitted unto them, and whose soever sins you retain they are retained.(John 20:23)


FW: The Father's plan of atonement had not been completed until the cross.

mlculwell: Can you imagine? Faithful witness wants us to believe God the father was taken by total surprise and did not know this was going to happen?? No, that is not what he is saying but it sure sounds ridiculous. Nobody said: "the atonement had been completed until the cross." I certainly did not but God most certainly had this planned from the foundation of the world and we were chosen in him and it was not that we were just chosen we were chosen in him based on his sacrifice which is the Grace of God not just some random nonsense that bypasses Jesus sacrifice.




FW: The text below points out that those who died and were justified by faith before Christ, received their justification based on what Christ would and did do in the future.

mlculwell: Now you are contradicting yourself this is what I have been saying all along and the reason the KJB included it in (Revelation 13:8) we cannot be saved without his sacrifice and being chosen before the foundation of the world is based on being in him and you cannot be in him or chosen for that matter without his sacrifice which refutes your Calvinistic doctrine and affirms what has been said by me.

FW:All people are saved the same way, whether before the incarnation or after; by faith. This idea that you have of the Lamb being slain before the foundation of the world is ridiculous and baseless.

mlculwell: Clearly I was correct and FW bypasses the Blood and sacrifice of Christ. without shedding of Blood is no remission(Hebrews 9:22)I do not have the lamb literally being slain which is ridiculous! But it was part of the plan/Logos of God that you having no spirit of understanding or discernment.


FW:Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

mlculwell: Most certainly the scriptures are correct. "Faith" is not your mental assent view. We must be in Christ and the scriptures teach we are Baptized into Christ by the water and the spirit(John 3:5, Gal.3:27) Baptism in Jesus name is not a work of man, but the spiritual work of God and "baptismal regeneration is not what we preach or teach! Regeneration comes through the name of Jesus in water baptism, making Jesus that savior. You not only bypass the blood of Jesus but the preaching of the word with your ridiculous doctrine.




FW:For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

mlculwell: Faith is not your mental assent doctrine and you contradict all the passages given ( Luke 24:47,John 17:20,20:23,Acts 19:2 Romans 10:14,)



FW:This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.(esv, bold mine)

mlculwell: You wrongly assume that that the *Reformed view of faith* which is not the faith that the scripture teach ie. your mental assent doctrine. I have given the passages which refute such doctrine, especially the following.

(Romans 10:14)faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You bypass!

(Luke 24:47) and that repentance and remission of sins be preached in my name among all nations beginning at Jerusalem. Faith is separate from the remission of sins in this passage real faith is ongoing and included. mental assent faith stops before the remission of sins(Which comes through Jesus name in water baptism )


(Acts 19:2) Teaches you do not get the Holy Ghost at belief by Paul asking the question have you received the Holy ghost since you believed?

(John 20:23)Jesus himself refutes the mental assent doctrine by saying to his disciples whose soever sins you remit they are remitted.