Many are called but Few chosen
It should
be pointed out that every passage given below I agree and believe but I
am addressing the passages as though the Calvinist has highjacked them
into their doctrine as proof text.
" The elect are not elected because
they are random individuals. The election is based on
their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being
in him through the preaching of the Gospel."
Calvinism:I
never said election was random, be honest and don't exaggerate. So, you
say that the basis on which God elects people, is that He looks down
the corridor of time and sees the response of that individual? So
salvation is predicated on whether or not a man responds positively to
God's grace? I see. Well friend, name that verse. I say that election is
based not on a man's will or response, but simply on the sovereign
grace of God. Here are my texts to prove that:
mlculwell:
No, I do not believe that "the basis on which God elects is that he
looks down the corridor of time and calls individuals that way." No, He
calls individuals based on what he has given(grace) which would be the
sacrifice of the sinless humanity of the son not that he again randomly
elects individuals which is a false doctrine and silly at that. We are
as individuals being placed in the body of Christ based on our response
to preaching which you bypass. We are elected in him, The Body is
foreordained, made up of individuals, not predestined as individuals to
salvation randomly one over another willy nilly apart from preaching.
Calvinism:John
1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he
gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood
nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (esv)
mlculwell:
Of course it is not the will of the flesh! We could will all we wanted
but unless God permits, or wills, we would be hopeless, but what the
Calvinist has done and has not been called on, is inserted the false
doctrine that "God already called individuals before we were known apart
from the response to the Gospel" or "made us respond positively" to get
around the blaring contradiction." Every man who hears is afforded the
same right to become children of God, not everyone will respond the
same, we see that from the parable of the sower who sowed Good seed, by
the seed falling upon different ground.
Calvinism:Romans
8: 29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed
to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among
many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those
whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also
glorified. (esv)
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (esv)
mlculwell:Here
we are seeing the same thing we see in Romans 10 where Paul leads us to
systematic logical conclusions: how shall they believe in him whom they
have not heard? and how shall the hear without preacher? and how shall
they preach accept they be sent?
We are only called, Justified, and
glorified, in him. Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says in(
Math.20:16,22:14)our Calvinist friend would try and tell us everyone to
whom God calls is chosen and this passage contradicts that assumption
forced upon many texts by Calvinists because of bad glossary
interpretation.In other words at first glance a passage seemingly
teaches said doctrine based on a glossary reading but when compared to
other passages it contradicts the scriptures The above passage would
contradict most of the passages submitted by our Calvinist friend.
Calvinism:Romans
9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good
or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not
because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older
will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I
hated.”(esv)
mlculwell: This is one of my favorites
that Calvinist's use and I am afraid I have to laugh every time I hear a
Calvinist ignorantly quote this passage as a supposed proof text. The
passage is not at all talking about God Choosing One brother over
another for salvation, the passage is talking about God choosing one
brother over another to fulfill his purpose, neither brother did *evil*
or Good as babies cannot. If a Calvinist can show me in the text that is
what is talking about I would be glad to hear about it?
Calvinism:Romans
9:16-18 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God,
who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose
I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my
name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on
whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(esv)
mlculwell:Certainly
apart from God we cannot will ourselves to salvation but God has given
grace which has appeared to all men now! The Calvinist assumes the above
passage is speaking about *individual salvation* and it is not! Again,
God has used individuals through out time to fulfill his purpose and he
did not just magically harden Pharaoh's heart or predetermine Pharaoh
was that way. God hardened his heart and knew just how to do so by
extending chance after chance to fulfill his purpose. The Calvinist
doctrine in every way is a silly unscriptual doctrine.
Now that we have
come to the time of the new covenant we are told in the new testament
that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL men, and not Just all but *especially
those who accepted the offer or believe* which contradicts the
Calvinistic false doctrines.(1st. Tim. 4:10) Is Jesus the Lord of All
men even though all do not accept that offer? In other words Jesus
offers salvation to all men not just all kinds of men and the passage
refutes that false notion along with the sower who sowed Good
seed.(Math. 13:5-20)
Calvinism:Romans
9:22-24 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his
power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for
destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels
of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he
has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?(esv)
mlculwell:The
passage says nothing about *the vessels prepared to predetermined
destruction* you submit the passage to me as a proof text of your
doctrine but I do not read what I know you are trying to assume with all
of these passages you submit. You attempt to add the notion to the text
by even submitting it, now why would God wait or "endure in much
patience" upon something he predetermined as a vessel of destruction?
God made every vessel, did he not? We are the Body of Christ, what he
sees,in him.
Calvinism; Ephesians 2:4-5 But
God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved
us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together
with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(esv)
mlculwell:
We are made alive by being in Christ, we cannot bypass that in any way!
How is it Calvinists bypass preaching? Faith cometh by hearing and
hearing by the word of God.(Romans 10:13-17) I will tell you how,you
believe God somehow miraculously makes you a believer apart from
preaching.Then you try and skirt that fact by deflecting when you are
caught.I agree with everyone of these passages you submit, but I have to
explain your ridiculous interpretation of them as I know what you
teach.
Calvinism:Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have
been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift
of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast
mlculwell:Grace
is something *given* by God, in other words, he extended the offer of
salvation freely to all men not just all kinds of men.(1st.
Tim.4:10,Gal. 6:10)There was nothing we could do as men to force God to
give or offer such, he simply did because of His love, but not all will
accept that offer. The above passage does not negate our response to the
preaching of the Gospel God gave(Grace) the foolishness of preaching of
the Gospel to save them which believe(1st. Cor. 1:21)There are many
other things involved that God gave through his grace that the Reformed
and many others exclude with the new mental assent doctrine.
Calvinism:Ephesians
1:5 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus
Christ, according to the purpose of his will(esv)
mlculwell:
Everything is in and through him(Jesus Christ)The Body is predestined
to Glory not individuals. We as individuals are predestined to glory as
long as we are in that body predestined to Glory.
Calvinism;Ephesians
1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined
according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the
counsel of his will, (esv)
mlculwell: I see nothing in any of these passages that explains the Calvinist doctrines.
Calvinism:Mark
13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would
be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the
days (esv)
mlculwell:The elect refer to those in him
and it is pompous and presumptuous to try and force a glossary reading
upon passages and assume they teach any of the Calvinist doctrines which
they wrestle to their own destruction.
Calvinism;I
don't see anything about God basing election on a man's response here.
Your wrong about the Trinity, and your wrong about Calvinism. Repent,
and receive the forgiveness of sins.
mlculwell; Of
Course you don't, but the very phrasing of calling and believing in
(Romans 10:5-17, John 17:20) tells us How we should call and believe and
it has nothing to do with the Calvinist interpretation of God making us
such apart from our will and response to the Gospel preached, you
purposely avoided such text.
Post script points to consider:
Other Points that should be pointed out are that Calvinist's will quote John 6:37-44 and leave out verse 45 which explains the former; as though God somehow bypasses the grace he has given with the preaching of the gospel and makes you a believer apart from your response to the gospel or God already ordered your response. John 6:45 tells us God will teach and draw men through preaching of the word.
John 17:12 has to do with the* twelve Apostles* and keeping them that are part of the foundation of the church along with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone and has nothing to do with individual salvation, Verse 18 seems to confirm this fact: The same exact way you sent me into the world I have sent them(12) into the world and none of them is LOST EXCEPT the son of perdition. The passage is not talking about the perseverance of the saints. All that the father gave Jesus to that point were under the Old covenant in verse 37. All does not include individuals in eternity past apart from their response to the gospel but there are exceptions to fulfill his purpose. Judas was an exception he was not the rule. These all happened to fulfill God's purpose by determinate council. God does have to work things or reign things in with man being a free moral agent which makes God a stronger God. Calvinism Makes god weak god; because God is simply setting up actors in a play. God is both sovereign and powerful.
Thursday, November 28, 2013
Many are called but Few chosen
It should be pointed out that every passage given below I agree and believe but I am addressing the passages as though the Calvinist has highjacked them into their doctrine as proof text. " The elect are not elected because they are random individuals. The election is based on their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being in him through the preaching of the Gospel."
Calvinism:I never said election was random, be honest and don't exaggerate. So, you say that the basis on which God elects people, is that He looks down the corridor of time and sees the response of that individual? So salvation is predicated on whether or not a man responds positively to God's grace? I see. Well friend, name that verse. I say that election is based not on a man's will or response, but simply on the sovereign grace of God. Here are my texts to prove that:
mlculwell: No, I do not believe that "the basis on which God elects is that he looks down the corridor of time and calls individuals that way." No, He calls individuals based on what he has given(grace) which would be the sacrifice of the sinless humanity of the son not that he again randomly elects individuals which is a false doctrine and silly at that. We are as individuals being placed in the body of Christ based on our response to preaching which you bypass. We are elected in him, The Body is foreordained, made up of individuals, not predestined as individuals to salvation randomly one over another willy nilly apart from preaching.
Calvinism:John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (esv)
mlculwell: Of course it is not the will of the flesh! We could will all we wanted but unless God permits, or wills, we would be hopeless, but what the Calvinist has done and has not been called on, is inserted the false doctrine that "God already called individuals before we were known apart from the response to the Gospel" or "made us respond positively" to get around the blaring contradiction." Every man who hears is afforded the same right to become children of God, not everyone will respond the same, we see that from the parable of the sower who sowed Good seed, by the seed falling upon different ground.
Calvinism:Romans 8: 29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (esv)
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (esv)
mlculwell:Here we are seeing the same thing we see in Romans 10 where Paul leads us to systematic logical conclusions: how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall the hear without preacher? and how shall they preach accept they be sent? We are only called, Justified, and glorified, in him. Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says in( Math.20:16,22:14)our Calvinist friend would try and tell us everyone to whom God calls is chosen and this passage contradicts that assumption forced upon many texts by Calvinists because of bad glossary interpretation.In other words at first glance a passage seemingly teaches said doctrine based on a glossary reading but when compared to other passages it contradicts the scriptures The above passage would contradict most of the passages submitted by our Calvinist friend.
Calvinism:Romans 9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”(esv)
mlculwell: This is one of my favorites that Calvinist's use and I am afraid I have to laugh every time I hear a Calvinist ignorantly quote this passage as a supposed proof text. The passage is not at all talking about God Choosing One brother over another for salvation, the passage is talking about God choosing one brother over another to fulfill his purpose, neither brother did *evil* or Good as babies cannot. If a Calvinist can show me in the text that is what is talking about I would be glad to hear about it?
Calvinism:Romans 9:16-18 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(esv)
mlculwell:Certainly apart from God we cannot will ourselves to salvation but God has given grace which has appeared to all men now! The Calvinist assumes the above passage is speaking about *individual salvation* and it is not! Again, God has used individuals through out time to fulfill his purpose and he did not just magically harden Pharaoh's heart or predetermine Pharaoh was that way. God hardened his heart and knew just how to do so by extending chance after chance to fulfill his purpose. The Calvinist doctrine in every way is a silly unscriptual doctrine. Now that we have come to the time of the new covenant we are told in the new testament that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL men, and not Just all but *especially those who accepted the offer or believe* which contradicts the Calvinistic false doctrines.(1st. Tim. 4:10) Is Jesus the Lord of All men even though all do not accept that offer? In other words Jesus offers salvation to all men not just all kinds of men and the passage refutes that false notion along with the sower who sowed Good seed.(Math. 13:5-20)
Calvinism:Romans 9:22-24 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?(esv)
mlculwell:The passage says nothing about *the vessels prepared to predetermined destruction* you submit the passage to me as a proof text of your doctrine but I do not read what I know you are trying to assume with all of these passages you submit. You attempt to add the notion to the text by even submitting it, now why would God wait or "endure in much patience" upon something he predetermined as a vessel of destruction? God made every vessel, did he not? We are the Body of Christ, what he sees,in him.
Calvinism; Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(esv)
mlculwell: We are made alive by being in Christ, we cannot bypass that in any way! How is it Calvinists bypass preaching? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.(Romans 10:13-17) I will tell you how,you believe God somehow miraculously makes you a believer apart from preaching.Then you try and skirt that fact by deflecting when you are caught.I agree with everyone of these passages you submit, but I have to explain your ridiculous interpretation of them as I know what you teach.
Calvinism:Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast
mlculwell:Grace is something *given* by God, in other words, he extended the offer of salvation freely to all men not just all kinds of men.(1st. Tim.4:10,Gal. 6:10)There was nothing we could do as men to force God to give or offer such, he simply did because of His love, but not all will accept that offer. The above passage does not negate our response to the preaching of the Gospel God gave(Grace) the foolishness of preaching of the Gospel to save them which believe(1st. Cor. 1:21)There are many other things involved that God gave through his grace that the Reformed and many others exclude with the new mental assent doctrine.
Calvinism:Ephesians 1:5 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will(esv)
mlculwell: Everything is in and through him(Jesus Christ)The Body is predestined to Glory not individuals. We as individuals are predestined to glory as long as we are in that body predestined to Glory.
Calvinism;Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (esv)
mlculwell: I see nothing in any of these passages that explains the Calvinist doctrines.
Calvinism:Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days (esv)
mlculwell:The elect refer to those in him and it is pompous and presumptuous to try and force a glossary reading upon passages and assume they teach any of the Calvinist doctrines which they wrestle to their own destruction.
Calvinism;I don't see anything about God basing election on a man's response here. Your wrong about the Trinity, and your wrong about Calvinism. Repent, and receive the forgiveness of sins.
mlculwell; Of Course you don't, but the very phrasing of calling and believing in (Romans 10:5-17, John 17:20) tells us How we should call and believe and it has nothing to do with the Calvinist interpretation of God making us such apart from our will and response to the Gospel preached, you purposely avoided such text
It should be pointed out that every passage given below I agree and believe but I am addressing the passages as though the Calvinist has highjacked them into their doctrine as proof text. " The elect are not elected because they are random individuals. The election is based on their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being in him through the preaching of the Gospel."
Calvinism:I never said election was random, be honest and don't exaggerate. So, you say that the basis on which God elects people, is that He looks down the corridor of time and sees the response of that individual? So salvation is predicated on whether or not a man responds positively to God's grace? I see. Well friend, name that verse. I say that election is based not on a man's will or response, but simply on the sovereign grace of God. Here are my texts to prove that:
mlculwell: No, I do not believe that "the basis on which God elects is that he looks down the corridor of time and calls individuals that way." No, He calls individuals based on what he has given(grace) which would be the sacrifice of the sinless humanity of the son not that he again randomly elects individuals which is a false doctrine and silly at that. We are as individuals being placed in the body of Christ based on our response to preaching which you bypass. We are elected in him, The Body is foreordained, made up of individuals, not predestined as individuals to salvation randomly one over another willy nilly apart from preaching.
Calvinism:John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (esv)
mlculwell: Of course it is not the will of the flesh! We could will all we wanted but unless God permits, or wills, we would be hopeless, but what the Calvinist has done and has not been called on, is inserted the false doctrine that "God already called individuals before we were known apart from the response to the Gospel" or "made us respond positively" to get around the blaring contradiction." Every man who hears is afforded the same right to become children of God, not everyone will respond the same, we see that from the parable of the sower who sowed Good seed, by the seed falling upon different ground.
Calvinism:Romans 8: 29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (esv)
Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (esv)
mlculwell:Here we are seeing the same thing we see in Romans 10 where Paul leads us to systematic logical conclusions: how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall the hear without preacher? and how shall they preach accept they be sent? We are only called, Justified, and glorified, in him. Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says in( Math.20:16,22:14)our Calvinist friend would try and tell us everyone to whom God calls is chosen and this passage contradicts that assumption forced upon many texts by Calvinists because of bad glossary interpretation.In other words at first glance a passage seemingly teaches said doctrine based on a glossary reading but when compared to other passages it contradicts the scriptures The above passage would contradict most of the passages submitted by our Calvinist friend.
Calvinism:Romans 9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”(esv)
mlculwell: This is one of my favorites that Calvinist's use and I am afraid I have to laugh every time I hear a Calvinist ignorantly quote this passage as a supposed proof text. The passage is not at all talking about God Choosing One brother over another for salvation, the passage is talking about God choosing one brother over another to fulfill his purpose, neither brother did *evil* or Good as babies cannot. If a Calvinist can show me in the text that is what is talking about I would be glad to hear about it?
Calvinism:Romans 9:16-18 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(esv)
mlculwell:Certainly apart from God we cannot will ourselves to salvation but God has given grace which has appeared to all men now! The Calvinist assumes the above passage is speaking about *individual salvation* and it is not! Again, God has used individuals through out time to fulfill his purpose and he did not just magically harden Pharaoh's heart or predetermine Pharaoh was that way. God hardened his heart and knew just how to do so by extending chance after chance to fulfill his purpose. The Calvinist doctrine in every way is a silly unscriptual doctrine. Now that we have come to the time of the new covenant we are told in the new testament that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL men, and not Just all but *especially those who accepted the offer or believe* which contradicts the Calvinistic false doctrines.(1st. Tim. 4:10) Is Jesus the Lord of All men even though all do not accept that offer? In other words Jesus offers salvation to all men not just all kinds of men and the passage refutes that false notion along with the sower who sowed Good seed.(Math. 13:5-20)
Calvinism:Romans 9:22-24 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?(esv)
mlculwell:The passage says nothing about *the vessels prepared to predetermined destruction* you submit the passage to me as a proof text of your doctrine but I do not read what I know you are trying to assume with all of these passages you submit. You attempt to add the notion to the text by even submitting it, now why would God wait or "endure in much patience" upon something he predetermined as a vessel of destruction? God made every vessel, did he not? We are the Body of Christ, what he sees,in him.
Calvinism; Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(esv)
mlculwell: We are made alive by being in Christ, we cannot bypass that in any way! How is it Calvinists bypass preaching? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.(Romans 10:13-17) I will tell you how,you believe God somehow miraculously makes you a believer apart from preaching.Then you try and skirt that fact by deflecting when you are caught.I agree with everyone of these passages you submit, but I have to explain your ridiculous interpretation of them as I know what you teach.
Calvinism:Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast
mlculwell:Grace is something *given* by God, in other words, he extended the offer of salvation freely to all men not just all kinds of men.(1st. Tim.4:10,Gal. 6:10)There was nothing we could do as men to force God to give or offer such, he simply did because of His love, but not all will accept that offer. The above passage does not negate our response to the preaching of the Gospel God gave(Grace) the foolishness of preaching of the Gospel to save them which believe(1st. Cor. 1:21)There are many other things involved that God gave through his grace that the Reformed and many others exclude with the new mental assent doctrine.
Calvinism:Ephesians 1:5 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will(esv)
mlculwell: Everything is in and through him(Jesus Christ)The Body is predestined to Glory not individuals. We as individuals are predestined to glory as long as we are in that body predestined to Glory.
Calvinism;Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (esv)
mlculwell: I see nothing in any of these passages that explains the Calvinist doctrines.
Calvinism:Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days (esv)
mlculwell:The elect refer to those in him and it is pompous and presumptuous to try and force a glossary reading upon passages and assume they teach any of the Calvinist doctrines which they wrestle to their own destruction.
Calvinism;I don't see anything about God basing election on a man's response here. Your wrong about the Trinity, and your wrong about Calvinism. Repent, and receive the forgiveness of sins.
mlculwell; Of Course you don't, but the very phrasing of calling and believing in (Romans 10:5-17, John 17:20) tells us How we should call and believe and it has nothing to do with the Calvinist interpretation of God making us such apart from our will and response to the Gospel preached, you purposely avoided such text
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