The Absurdity of Trinity Doctrine. Does God Pray?

 From Carm.Org link to forums.carm.org a trinitarain poster  wrote and ignores the following answer in reference to the Oneness claim that the  genuine man Jesus was praying to the one God that both Incarnated him, and who was still literally on the throne in heaven :

The poster then says:"You have God praying to himself or a sham. Please explain." 

The writer then dishonestly writes the following in reply to his own from Oneness adherent and How  that Jesus was both God and man at the same time and that a distinction must be made in Jesus as  both David's son(Man) and David's LORD(God) concerning the incarnation.

 He then   adamantly rejects the answer and says:"This is not about Jesus, per se, but God in totality." 

I would first pose how that this person thoughtlessly shoots himself in the foot with the question, and has God praying to himself.  I would then remind him that even the Chalcedon confession which I personally put zero stock in and reject the majority of as un-scriptural; says the following:

"for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person."

 In Layman's terms the trinitarain confession says: there is a distinction in his human nature and his divine  nature(Which Oneness adherents maintain) although Oneness states with scripture  his divinity is the Father that incarnates the son and makes the son God. As Malachi 2:10 states: the totality of God is called the Father and not a person of "the trinity." ( Isa.9:6, Malachi 2:10,Math.28:18, Acts 2:36,John 14:10)

Most of the questions posed and presented by trinitarains  affect their own doctrines as much or more than it does the Oneness. For example, take their argument and accusation of "patripassianism"  or the accusation that we must hold the doctrine that "The father died" which is just as thoughtless as the former argument directed toward Oneness. Any God dying or praying is just as bad as the other whether it is the son dying as god or the father dying as God and Oneness do not teach that God as father or son died but the body and genuine humanity that God incarnated died. The very problem is highlighted in the Chalcedon creed that says:" Mary was the Mother of God" In one instance the creed says divinity and humanity is "inconfusedly" and in another confuses and makes no distinction with the mother of God quote.

What is the lesson here then? Well both trinitarains and Oneness in arguing their points better make sure to choose their answers carefully. And No, God does not pray; nor does he have need to pray because he has nothing higher in the way of having a God which then screams of polytheism! God no more prays  any more   than Mary was the mother of God! Both questions are distinction errors. Yes Jesus is God, and yes Jesus is man at the same time, Both David's son, and David's God or LORD. The scripture makes the distinction the poster from CARM dishonestly denied that which the bible makes claim. Think about it....

Who Am I

Many are called but Few chosen


It should be pointed out that every passage given below I agree and believe but I am addressing the passages as though the Calvinist has highjacked them into their doctrine as proof text.

" The elect are not elected because they are random individuals. The election is based on their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being in him through the preaching of the Gospel."


Calvinism:I never said election was random, be honest and don't exaggerate. So, you say that the basis on which God elects people, is that He looks down the corridor of time and sees the response of that individual? So salvation is predicated on whether or not a man responds positively to God's grace? I see. Well friend, name that verse. I say that election is based not on a man's will or response, but simply on the sovereign grace of God. Here are my texts to prove that:


mlculwell: No, I do not believe that "the basis on which God elects is that he looks down the corridor of time and calls individuals that way." No, He calls individuals based on what he has given(grace) which would be the sacrifice of the sinless humanity of the son not that he again randomly elects individuals which is a false doctrine and silly at that. We are as individuals being placed in the body of Christ based on our response to preaching which you bypass. We are elected in him, The Body is foreordained, made up of individuals, not predestined as individuals to salvation randomly one over another willy nilly apart from preaching.


Calvinism:John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (esv)

mlculwell: Of course it is not the will of the flesh! We could will all we wanted but unless God permits, or wills, we would be hopeless, but what the Calvinist has done and has not been called on, is inserted the false doctrine that "God already called individuals before we were known apart from the response to the Gospel" or "made us respond positively" to get around the blaring contradiction." Every man who hears is afforded the same right to become children of God, not everyone will respond the same, we see that from the parable of the sower who sowed Good seed, by the seed falling upon different ground.

Calvinism:Romans 8: 29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (esv)


Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (esv)

mlculwell:Here we are seeing the same thing we see in Romans 10 where Paul leads us to systematic logical conclusions: how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall the hear without preacher? and how shall they preach accept they be sent?

We are only called, Justified, and glorified, in him. Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says in( Math.20:16,22:14)our Calvinist friend would try and tell us everyone to whom God calls is chosen and this passage contradicts that assumption forced upon many texts by Calvinists because of bad glossary interpretation.In other words at first glance a passage seemingly teaches said doctrine based on a glossary reading but when compared to other passages it contradicts the scriptures The above passage would contradict most of the passages submitted by our Calvinist friend.


Calvinism:Romans 9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”(esv)

mlculwell: This is one of my favorites that Calvinist's use and I am afraid I have to laugh every time I hear a Calvinist ignorantly quote this passage as a supposed proof text. The passage is not at all talking about God Choosing One brother over another for salvation, the passage is talking about God choosing one brother over another to fulfill his purpose, neither brother did *evil* or Good as babies cannot. If a Calvinist can show me in the text that is what is talking about I would be glad to hear about it?

Calvinism:Romans 9:16-18 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(esv)


mlculwell:Certainly apart from God we cannot will ourselves to salvation but God has given grace which has appeared to all men now! The Calvinist assumes the above passage is speaking about *individual salvation* and it is not! Again, God has used individuals through out time to fulfill his purpose and he did not just magically harden Pharaoh's heart or predetermine Pharaoh was that way. God hardened his heart and knew just how to do so by extending chance after chance to fulfill his purpose. The Calvinist doctrine in every way is a silly unscriptual doctrine.

Now that we have come to the time of the new covenant we are told in the new testament that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL men, and not Just all but *especially those who accepted the offer or believe* which contradicts the Calvinistic false doctrines.(1st. Tim. 4:10) Is Jesus the Lord of All men even though all do not accept that offer? In other words Jesus offers salvation to all men not just all kinds of men and the passage refutes that false notion along with the sower who sowed Good seed.(Math. 13:5-20)


Calvinism:Romans 9:22-24 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?(esv)

mlculwell:The passage says nothing about *the vessels prepared to predetermined destruction* you submit the passage to me as a proof text of your doctrine but I do not read what I know you are trying to assume with all of these passages you submit. You attempt to add the notion to the text by even submitting it, now why would God wait or "endure in much patience" upon something he predetermined as a vessel of destruction? God made every vessel, did he not? We are the Body of Christ, what he sees,in him.


Calvinism; Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(esv)


mlculwell: We are made alive by being in Christ, we cannot bypass that in any way! How is it Calvinists bypass preaching? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.(Romans 10:13-17) I will tell you how,you believe God somehow miraculously makes you a believer apart from preaching.Then you try and skirt that fact by deflecting when you are caught.I agree with everyone of these passages you submit, but I have to explain your ridiculous interpretation of them as I know what you teach.

Calvinism:Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

mlculwell:Grace is something *given* by God, in other words, he extended the offer of salvation freely to all men not just all kinds of men.(1st. Tim.4:10,Gal. 6:10)There was nothing we could do as men to force God to give or offer such, he simply did because of His love, but not all will accept that offer. The above passage does not negate our response to the preaching of the Gospel God gave(Grace) the foolishness of preaching of the Gospel to save them which believe(1st. Cor. 1:21)There are many other things involved that God gave through his grace that the Reformed and many others exclude with the new mental assent doctrine.

Calvinism:Ephesians 1:5 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will(esv)

mlculwell: Everything is in and through him(Jesus Christ)The Body is predestined to Glory not individuals. We as individuals are predestined to glory as long as we are in that body predestined to Glory.

Calvinism;Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (esv)

mlculwell: I see nothing in any of these passages that explains the Calvinist doctrines.

Calvinism:Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days (esv)

mlculwell:The elect refer to those in him and it is pompous and presumptuous to try and force a glossary reading upon passages and assume they teach any of the Calvinist doctrines which they wrestle to their own destruction.

Calvinism;I don't see anything about God basing election on a man's response here. Your wrong about the Trinity, and your wrong about Calvinism. Repent, and receive the forgiveness of sins.

mlculwell; Of Course you don't, but the very phrasing of calling and believing in (Romans 10:5-17, John 17:20) tells us How we should call and believe and it has nothing to do with the Calvinist interpretation of God making us such apart from our will and response to the Gospel preached, you purposely avoided such text.

Post script points to consider:

Other Points that should be pointed out are that Calvinist's will quote  John 6:37-44 and leave out verse 45 which explains the former; as though God somehow bypasses the grace he has given with the preaching of the gospel and makes you a believer apart from your response to the gospel or God already ordered your response.  John 6:45 tells us God will teach  and draw men  through preaching of the word.

John 17:12 has to do with the* twelve Apostles* and keeping them that are part of the foundation of the church  along with Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone and has nothing to do with individual salvation, Verse 18  seems to confirm this fact: The same exact way you sent me into the world I have sent them(12) into the world and none  of them is LOST EXCEPT the son of perdition. The passage is not talking about the perseverance of the saints. All that the father gave Jesus to that point were  under the Old covenant in verse 37. All does not include individuals in eternity past apart from their response to the gospel but there are exceptions to fulfill his purpose. Judas was an exception he was not the rule. These all happened to fulfill God's purpose by determinate council. God does have to work things or reign things in with man being a free moral agent which makes God a stronger God. Calvinism Makes god weak god; because God is simply setting up actors in a play. God is both sovereign and powerful.

Many are called but Few chosen


It should be pointed out that every passage given below I agree and believe but I am addressing the passages as though the Calvinist has highjacked them into their doctrine as proof text.

" The elect are not elected because they are random individuals. The election is based on  their response to his grace(Given of the son in sacrifice)or them being in him through the preaching of the Gospel."


Calvinism:I never said election was random, be honest and don't exaggerate. So, you say that the basis on which God elects people, is that He looks down the corridor of time and sees the response of that individual? So salvation is predicated on whether or not a man responds positively to God's grace? I see. Well friend, name that verse. I say that election is based not on a man's will or response, but simply on the sovereign grace of God. Here are my texts to prove that:


mlculwell: No, I do not believe that "the basis on which God elects is that he looks down the corridor of time and calls individuals that way." No, He calls individuals based on what he has given(grace) which would be the sacrifice of the sinless humanity of the son not that he again randomly elects individuals which is a false doctrine and silly at that. We are as individuals being placed in the body of Christ based on our response to preaching which you bypass. We are elected in him, The Body is foreordained, made up of individuals, not predestined as individuals to salvation randomly one over another willy nilly apart from preaching.


Calvinism:John 1:12-13 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God. (esv)

mlculwell: Of course it is not the will of the flesh! We could will all we wanted but unless God permits, or wills, we would be hopeless, but what the Calvinist has done and has not been called on, is inserted the false doctrine that "God already called individuals before we were known apart from the response to the Gospel" or "made us respond positively" to get around the blaring contradiction." Every man who hears is afforded the same right to become children of God, not everyone will respond the same, we see that from the parable of the sower who sowed Good seed, by the seed falling upon different ground.

Calvinism:Romans 8: 29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (esv)


Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (esv)

mlculwell:Here we are seeing the same thing we see in Romans 10 where Paul leads us to systematic logical conclusions: how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall the hear without preacher? and how shall they preach accept they be sent?

We are only called, Justified, and glorified, in him. Many are called but few are chosen Jesus says in( Math.20:16,22:14)our Calvinist friend would try and tell us everyone to whom God calls is chosen and this passage contradicts that assumption forced upon many texts by Calvinists because of bad glossary interpretation.In other words at first glance a passage seemingly teaches said doctrine based on a glossary reading but when compared to other passages it contradicts the scriptures The above passage would contradict most of the passages submitted by our Calvinist friend.


Calvinism:Romans 9:11-13 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”(esv)

mlculwell: This is one of my favorites that Calvinist's use and I am afraid I have to laugh every time I hear a Calvinist ignorantly quote this passage as a supposed proof text. The passage is not at all talking about God Choosing One brother over another for salvation, the passage is talking about God choosing one brother over another to fulfill his purpose, neither brother did *evil* or Good as babies cannot. If a Calvinist can show me in the text that is what is talking about I would be glad to hear about it?

Calvinism:Romans 9:16-18 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.(esv)


mlculwell:Certainly apart from God we cannot will ourselves to salvation but God has given grace which has appeared to all men now! The Calvinist assumes the above passage is speaking about *individual salvation* and it is not! Again, God has used individuals through out time to fulfill his purpose and he did not just magically harden Pharaoh's heart or predetermine Pharaoh was that way. God hardened his heart and knew just how to do so by extending chance after chance to fulfill his purpose. The Calvinist doctrine in every way is a silly unscriptual doctrine.

Now that we have come to the time of the new covenant we are told in the new testament that Jesus is the Saviour of ALL men, and not Just all but *especially those who accepted the offer or believe* which contradicts the Calvinistic false doctrines.(1st. Tim. 4:10) Is Jesus the Lord of All men even though all do not accept that offer? In other words Jesus offers salvation to all men not just all kinds of men and the passage refutes that false notion along with the sower who sowed Good seed.(Math. 13:5-20)


Calvinism:Romans 9:22-24 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?(esv)

mlculwell:The passage says nothing about *the vessels prepared to predetermined destruction* you submit the passage to me as a proof text of your doctrine but I do not read what I know you are trying to assume with all of these passages you submit. You attempt to add the notion to the text by even submitting it, now why would God wait or "endure in much patience" upon something he predetermined as a vessel of destruction? God made every vessel, did he not? We are the Body of Christ, what he sees,in him.


Calvinism; Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—(esv)


mlculwell: We are made alive by being in Christ, we cannot bypass that in any way! How is it Calvinists bypass preaching? Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.(Romans 10:13-17) I will tell you how,you believe God somehow miraculously makes you a believer apart from preaching.Then you try and skirt that fact by deflecting when you are caught.I agree with everyone of these passages you submit, but I have to explain your ridiculous interpretation of them as I know what you teach.

Calvinism:Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast

mlculwell:Grace is something *given* by God, in other words, he extended the offer of salvation freely to all men not just all kinds of men.(1st. Tim.4:10,Gal. 6:10)There was nothing we could do as men to force God to give or offer such, he simply did because of His love, but not all will accept that offer. The above passage does not negate our response to the preaching of the Gospel God gave(Grace) the foolishness of preaching of the Gospel to save them which believe(1st. Cor. 1:21)There are many other things involved that God gave through his grace that the Reformed and many others exclude with the new mental assent doctrine.

Calvinism:Ephesians 1:5 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will(esv)

mlculwell: Everything is in and through him(Jesus Christ)The Body is predestined to Glory not individuals. We as individuals are predestined to glory as long as we are in that body predestined to Glory.

Calvinism;Ephesians 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, (esv)

mlculwell: I see nothing in any of these passages that explains the Calvinist doctrines.

Calvinism:Mark 13:20 And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days (esv)

mlculwell:The elect refer to those in him and it is pompous and presumptuous to try and force a glossary reading upon passages and assume they teach any of the Calvinist doctrines which they wrestle to their own destruction.

Calvinism;I don't see anything about God basing election on a man's response here. Your wrong about the Trinity, and your wrong about Calvinism. Repent, and receive the forgiveness of sins.

mlculwell; Of Course you don't, but the very phrasing of calling and believing in (Romans 10:5-17, John 17:20) tells us How we should call and believe and it has nothing to do with the Calvinist interpretation of God making us such apart from our will and response to the Gospel preached, you purposely avoided such text

Why Are Not the Seven Spirits of God the Standard for How Many Persons of God instead of Three Persons?

It seems the standard  tired question trinitarians ask of Oneness: is what about the baptism of Jesus? The Trinitarian will point to the three manifestations present at the baptism as proof positive that there are three persons of God. But is that the actual case and does it prove three persons? I say with a resounding No, it does not.

What is present at Jesus Baptism are: the voice of God from heaven, The spirit manifested as a dove, and Jesus in the water.  They were all  temporary manifestations  at least the voice and the dove as a sign and  as proof as to whom Jesus was.

                                                                                        John 1:32-34

32John testified saying, "I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. 33"I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.' 34"I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God."

We do not have three persons of God being seen in the passage whatsoever as no such doctrine exists in scripture anywhere. We have a Voice (Not a person) the same spirit of God manifesting himself as the voice also manifesting himself as a dove (Not a person either) and we have Jesus in the water A person. The question remains then are these manifestation different persons of God? Or are the manifestation of the one God in three different areas or ways that God chose to reveal himself?

If these were three persons of God why is this vague alluding to a voice and a dove the standard number of persons set for God? 

                                                                                         Revelation 1:4

John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,

                                                                  

                                                                                       Revelation 3:1

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

 

                                                                                 Revelation 5:6

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

                                                                                   Isaiah 11:2

And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

The above passage shows perfectly the completeness of God in The Lord Jesus Christ in the fullness of the Godhead bodily in quality. Oneness does not consider the scriptures to teach multiple persons anywhere, nor does it even allude to the false doctrine. The doctrine of the trinity and three persons of God is an oral non- scriptural tradition of men on the very same level as Maryology and Popery and is not sola scriptua.

Excerpts from Robert Sabins:A ONENESS PERSPECTIVE OF JOHN 16:13

  Robert Sabin has a very thorough study on John 16:13 that I thought should be posted to help in the studies of everyone including trinitarians. The study is very long so this is the condensed version. (By yours truly.)

 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: FOR HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF; BUT WHATSOEVER HE SHALL HEAR, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK: and he will shew you things to come. - John 16:13

I. What is the importance of a study on one passage of scripture which shows the Spirit as "not speaking of himself; speaking what he hears?"
In three main passages in the Gospel of John, chapters 14, 15, 16, Jesus spoke of the coming Spirit in third person language using the pronoun "he" in such a way that translators and interpreters have determined that the Spirit was other-than-Jesus and other-than-Father.
In one verse within these passages, John 16:13, Jesus is further thought to use "agent terminology" or "prophetic enablement terminology" to describe how the Spirit of Truth is enabled to speak, terminology which shows that Spirit is unable to act independently, to speak "of himself." The Spirit is the passive receiver of divine information which he then relates to those he inhabits. The source of the information which the Spirit "hears and speaks" must be either Jesus who would then be speaking to the Spirit who "hears" the message that Jesus speaks and relays it to believers, or it must be the Father who speaks to the Spirit who then relays the message to believers. In either case, the Spirit is not deemed to be the originator of the words but an agent of either Jesus or the Father. The Spirit, by this relationship with Jesus and/or the Father, becomes "other than either."
Such conclusions require a distinction of person between Jesus and the Spirit, or between the Father and the Spirit, or between all three, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and thus require the existence of a Trinity.
Important questions arise relative to the ONEness of the Godhead and the absolute deity of Jesus Christ because of these conclusions. Is the Spirit actually one other-than Jesus, one who mediates divine communications, passing them on to believers? Is the Spirit actually one other-than-the Father, one who mediates divine communications, passing them on to believers? does the Spirit have existence as a person distinct from both the Father and the Son? Are Father, Son and Holy Spirit three distinct persons in the Godhead, peers, collateral persons who collaborate to accomplish the divine will?
It is generally agreed that the doctrine of the Holy Spirit as the third person in the Godhead was a late addition to the creeds, and possesses a paucity of scriptural support. "Down to the fourth cen-tury, the deity of the Holy Spirit came in for much less either of explicit assertion or of direct attack than that of the Son. Largely this was due to its raising no special problem; if the godhead was not unitary, it was as simple to conceive of three Persons as of two:" [G.L. Prestige, GOD IN PATRISTIC THOUGHT, SPCK, p. 80, London, 1936.]
"But it seems quite clear that the Jews never regarded the Spirit as a person; nor is there any solid evidence that any Old Testament writer held this view....the sacred writers never conceived or presented this Spirit as a distinct person....Many scholars seem convinced that in Paul the Holy Spirit is an impersonal divine force that is occasional-ly personified." [Edmund J. Fortman, THE TRIUNE GOD, A HISTORICAL STUDY OF THE DOCTRINE OF THE TRINITY, p. 6, p. 9. p.21, Baker, Grand Rapids, MI, 1927.]
In the John Ankerberg Debate, April 30, 1985, Walter Martin was able to produce only one scripture which he believed ascribed deity to the Holy Spirit as a person distinct from either Jesus or the Father, Acts 5:3-4.
The doctrine of the Holy Spirit as a third person in the Godhead is the weakest link in the formulated doctrine of the Trinity. John 16:13 provides the strongest bit of evidence to support and strengthen that weak link, the doctrine of the Holy Spirit as a person other-than-God. disproving the evidence further weakens the link, hastening the breaking of the chain, releasing men to the revelation of truth.
Therefore, it is of great importance to give earnest consideration to the one text of scripture which is cited to prove that the Holy Ghost is a person other-than-God to whom God speaks.
II. WHAT JOHN 16:13 DOES NOT MEAN - Does the Holy Ghost have an enabler, a revealer who tells him what to say?
Is there anything in scripture other than this verse that would indicate that the Spirit of God receives and relays communications of divine truth from another person?
Quite to the contrary, the scriptures, Old and New Testaments, show the Holy Ghost to be the independent originator of divine actions, words and revelations.
CAN THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD BE DIRECTED OR COUNSELED?
Isaiah 40:13 Who hath directed the Spirit of the LORD, or [being] his counselor hath taught him?
Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
These verses, if no other, make it clear that the Spirit of the LORD does not receive, nor does he need to receive communications from any other. There is no other person or being, divine or human, capable of directing or counseling the Spirit of the LORD.
The Spirit of the LORD is the absolute originator of divine words and not a secondary source. The spirit neither needs nor possesses another more primary source as his enabler.


III. WHAT, THEN, IS MEANT BY THE WORDS OF JOHN 16:13, "HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF, BUT WHATSOEVER HE HEARETH, THAT SHALL HE SPEAK." How is it that the Spirit of God can not be "directed, counseled," and yet, in this one instance, is said to only speak "what he hears."

We must direct our attention worst of all to the language of the verse as it occurs in the King James Version. The first clause states, "HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF." Some take this to mean that the Holy Ghost is modest and does no talk ABOUT HIMSELF. Robert M. Bowman of Christian Research Institute during the 1989 St. Paul, MN debate emphasized this modesty of the third person in the Godhead to explain the absence of mention of the Spirit in such New Testament passages as the salutations to the epistles and in such passages as
Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man KNOWETH THE SON, BUT THE FATHER; neither KNOWETH ANY MAN THE FATHER, SAVE THE SON, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT.” Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, “My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, “I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10).” As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ: - See more at: http://www.apostolic-voice.org/tracts/the-truth-about-one-god#sthash.lNYyduiI.dpuf

The angel announced, “For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD.” Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, “I am He.” Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, “I am He.” John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, “Who art thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I AM JESUS.” Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, “.. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works…Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME…” John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, “I and My Father are ONE (not two).” John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, “…For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER.” John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, “This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased.”
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, “IN WHOM” – not with whom! “To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself…” II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term “right hand” does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term “right hand” as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, “Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?” If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, “For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER.” Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT.” Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, “My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, “I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10).” As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
- See more at: http://www.apostolic-voice.org/tracts/the-truth-about-one-god#sthash.lNYyduiI.dpuf

The angel announced, “For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD.” Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, “I am He.” Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, “I am He.” John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, “Who art thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I AM JESUS.” Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, “.. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works…Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME…” John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, “I and My Father are ONE (not two).” John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, “…For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER.” John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, “This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased.”
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, “IN WHOM” – not with whom! “To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself…” II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term “right hand” does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term “right hand” as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, “Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?” If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, “For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER.” Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT.” Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, “My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, “I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10).” As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
- See more at: http://www.apostolic-voice.org/tracts/the-truth-about-one-god#sthash.lNYyduiI.dpuf

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I SPEAK NOT OF MYSELF: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether I speak God, or WHETHER I SPEAK OF MYSELF.
John 7:28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I AM NOT COME OF MYSELF, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49 For I HAVE NOT SPOKEN OF MYSELF; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Thus we see that the phrase, "I speak not of myself," with some variations, is a phrase commonly on the lips of Jesus which identifies the uniqueness of his ministry. Indeed, it is a special characteristic of the manner in which he speaks, a hallmark. He is not the originator of the words of his message. He is not the enabler of his own prophet-ic voice. He is one who is enabled by another, one who speaks another's message. Just who the enabler might be is made perfectly clear by Jesus himself.
John 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. 38 I SPEAK THAT WHICH I HAVE SEEN WITH MY FATHER: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things THAT I HAVE HEARD OF MY FATHER I have made known unto you.


In John 15:26 Jesus again uses enigmatic language concerning the Comforter. He is "sent" from the Father, "proceedeth" from the Father and "testifies" of Jesus.
John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
The language appears to describe someone other-than-Jesus.
In the light of the plain words of John 14:18, the Comforter that Jesus "sends" form the Father is actually himself, "I WILL NOT LEAVE YOU COMFORTLESS: I WILL COME TO YOU" (John 14:18). The "another Comforter" is Jesus Christ glorified, made a quickening Spirit, inhabit-ing the disciples.


What is the background of this phrase, "HE SHALL NOT SPEAK OF HIMSELF?"
When it refers to the inhabiting Spirit, how can it be recon-ciled with the fact that the scriptures state that no man can direct the Spirit of the Lord? Isaiah 40:13. How is it that John 16:13 por-trays an inhabiting Spirit who is, seemingly contrary to Isaiah 40:13, directed by another?
The phrase, "not speak of himself," are the words of prophetic enablement, which is the manner in which God gives his words to any true prophet of God and most specifically to the one prophet of God that would be raised up. The clear mark of identity of this prophet is that he, as Moses, would speak God's words, not his own words. This is the way that Jesus spoke while he lived on earth. This is the way that Jesus would continue to speak when he lived in the Holy-Ghost-filled disciples. The scriptural background for this language begins at least as early as the days of Moses.
Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put MY WORDS IN HIS MOUTH; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever will not hearken unto MY WORDS WHICH HE SHALL SPEAK IN MY NAME, I will require [it] of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I HAVE NOT COMMANDED HIM TO SPEAK, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Exodus 4:10 And Moses said unto the LORD, O my Lord, I [am] not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant: but I [am] slow of speech, and of a slow tongue. 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD? 12 Now therefore go, and I WILL BE WITH THY MOUTH, AND TEACH THEE WHAT THOU SHALT SAY.

JESUS IS GOD, NOT GOD THE SON, NOT THE SECOND PERSON.

Psalms 45:6 Thy throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: the scepter of thy kingdom [is] a right scepter.
Psalms 102:24 I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years [are] throughout all generations. 25 Of OLD HAST THOU LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands. 26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: 27 But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name IMMANUEL.
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, THE MIGHTY GOD, THE EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was GOD.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.
John 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet HAST THOU NOT KNOWN ME, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself GOD.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD AND MY GOD.
Romans 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, GOD BLESSED FOR EVER. Amen.
Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
Colossians 1:19 For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell;
Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the GLORIOUS AP-PEARING OF THE GREAT GOD AND OUR SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST;
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O GOD, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. 10 And, Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
II Peter 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
II Peter 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
II Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
I John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true GOD, and eternal life. [Windisch and Preisker, DIE KATHOLISCHEN BRIEFE, p. 135 saying refers to Christ, quoted in Cullman]
Jude 1:25 To the only wise GOD OUR SAVIOUR, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and for ever. Amen.
Revelation 1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. (transfers to Jesus the description of the An-cient of Days in Daniel 7:13)
Plus all the kyrios passages: "Actually, the passages which confer upon Jesus the title Kyrios, the name of God, are at least as important as those in which he is directly addressed as "God....We have seen that on the basis of the designation Kyrios early Christianity does not hesitate to transfer to Jesus every-thing the Old Testament says about God (Cullman, p. 307)
That Jesus is God in flesh is not in question. The question regarding John 16:13 arises from the collateral fact that Jesus is not only God, but he is also a man, even when he inhabits the disciples; and as a man he shares in common with all mankind the human qualities, strictures and attributes in "all things." He does not such his human identity nor his human prerogatives when he is glorified nor when he inhabits believers. He continues to exist with human strictures, even within believers.
While he existed on earth, Jesus operated in all things in relationship to God and in relationship to man just as all other men had to operate.
Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him to be made LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

1. Was the Holy Ghost, the Spirit of Truth referred to in John 16:13, a Spirit other-than-Jesus-Christ?

The answer to this question is no. The writers of scripture made no effort to show God's Spirit to be someone or something other-than-God.God, God's Spirit, God's word are simply different ways of speaking of God acting, speaking, revealing.


VI. Why is it that Jesus in us, the Holy Ghost, the one Spirit of truth, is still referred to as having "human capacity," a being able to "speak not of himself," to speak only "what he hears"?
When Jesus Christ lived on earth, he had both human and divine capacities, was at the same time both God and man, Father and Son, prophetic enabler and prophet. Jesus Christ in the heart of believers may still act in human capacity, which he does when he makes intercession for us, when he "speaks what he hears," when he acts as high priest, when he mediates. The humanity of Jesus is absolutely essential to the salvation of the world. He will not be able to fully declare, reveal and manifest his true deity until the last soul is saved through his capacity as a human savior and redeemer.
By telling the disciples in John 16:13 that the inhabiting Spirit would not "speak of himself, but would speak what he hears," Jesus was telling them that there was unbroken continuity between his bodily presence with them and his spiritual presence in them. The Inhabiting Christ would still be "speaking what he hears." He would be acting in the prophet mode just as he also acted in the human lamb/sacrifice mode or in the mediatorial mode. His words would still be conveying the absolute words of God, of the Father. It would not be necessary for them to adjust to some new method of relating to or of listening to Jesus.
Does this mean that there are two persons in the believer? Again, the answer is no. Only one being inhabits the believer. That being is the glorified Christ. He is God; He is man.
There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then [serveth] the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; [and it was] ordained by angels in the hand of a MEDIATOR. 20 Now a MEDIATOR is not a MEDIATOR of one, but God is one.
I Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the MEDIATOR of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the MEDIATOR of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
I John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an ADVOCATE with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


VIII. The scriptures by indiscriminate use of various names or appellations of the Spirit of God, support the idea that these names are actually ways in which we conceptualize the operations or capacities of the Spirit of God but do not show a distinction of a person.
The Spirit of God is generally agreed to be that aspect of God by which God interacts with the world and with men, through no such precise definition of the Spirit is given in the scripture. If true, the Spirit of God is God considered as acting, moving, speaking and enabling men. The Spirit enabled men to speak God's true words, to accomplish God's eternal purpose. Thus, Jesus was ENABLED by the eter-nal Spirit to offer himself a perfect sacrifice to God whereby his blood became efficacious.
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who THROUGH the ETERNAL SPIRIT offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
In the designation ETERNAL SPIRIT the acting, moving, enabling power is considered in the Spirit of God's most fundamental aspect, eternality. This aspect of the Spirit never changes. It was the Spirit of God which enabled Jesus the man to offer himself. It is the same Spirit of God which enables all men to know and to do those things necessary to accomplish the will of God.
Acts 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul THROUGH THE SPIRIT, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.
Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye THROUGH THE SPIRIT do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Galatians 5:5 For we THROUGH THE SPIRIT wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.


When will intercession by the son, the mediation of the son, end?
When will subordination of the son, prophetic enablement of the son by the Father, human agency of the Son no longer be necessary?
When Jesus inhabits the believer, he still retains his human identity and capacity. It is Christ who is in us. He is our high priest.
Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
He operates as subordinate to the Father, and when he speaks, he speaks not of his own origination, he does "not speak of himself." but he is not only the prophet who speaks the words of another, he is the prophetic enabler as well. Jesus is also God himself, who supplies the words.
How long will this arrangement for the transfer of information from the Father to the Son be necessary? When will his absolute deity, his ultimate inheritance of all names titles and prerogatives of deity be complete?
Answer: The subordinate position, sonship, continues until ever enemy is destroyed.
Psalms 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, UNTIL I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The word "until" in the above text is clear indication that the subordinate position, the "right-hand position," is not a permanent position. There will be a shift in position, a moving from the right-hand place to another place. One does not move from the right-hand place to the left-hand place. That would be a demotion. One does not move from the right-hand place to a position under the throne. That would be a humiliation. There is only one imaginable move from the right-hand place to the very throne itself. Of course, there is o actual move in space as the anthropomorphic expression, "right-hand," would cause us to conceive. rather than a space-position move, there will be and authority-position move. The son will inherit the Father's throne, the Father's prerogatives and the Father's identity. he will be revealed as God, all and in all.
QUESTION: What scriptures indicate that the ultimate designation of Christ as not only our Lord and our Christ but as our God and our Father will not occur until a designated time?
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government SHALL BE upon his shoulder: and his name SHALL BE called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The child has already been born and the son has already been given. Those are events of history. The future tense verb, shall be, in the above scripture is an indication of a progression of manifestation or revelation. Even though Jesus Christ was god from birth, Matthew 1:23, Lord from birth, Luke 1:35, never became other that what he already was, there is a definite time sequence to his ultimate revelation as the God and Father.
Jesus spoke in proverbs about the Father, indicating a time, a day when he would speak plainly.
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: BUT THE TIME COMETH, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. 26 AT THAT DAY ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
At the designated time, the end, Jesus will be revealed as the "only potentate."
I Timothy 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, UNTIL THE APPEARING of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 WHICH IN HIS TIMES he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.
ALL THINGS ARE SCHEDULED IN A TIME SEQUENCE.
Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of THIS PRESENT TIME [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH for the manifestation of the sons of God.
Matthew 24:29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And THEN SHALL APPEAR the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, HEREAFTER shall ye see the SON OF MAN sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This [is] the first resurrection. 7 And WHEN THE THOUSAND YEARS ARE EXPIRED, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
The above verses indicate that there are several things that must take place in a definite sequence of events. Most of these things are accomplished through Jesus Christ as man, as the Son of Man. These things relate to the exaltation of his church, the adoption of Spirit-filled believers as actual Sons of God, and the wrapping up of earth events including the destruction of the works of Satan, which God said would be accomplished by the "seed of the woman" (Genesis 3:15). Therefore, Jesus must continue to operate in the human genre, the subordinate relationship, the in-all-things-like-his-brethren state until he has accomplished his work as mediator, high priest, interces-sor, seed-of-woman conqueror of Satan.
Ultimately, the work of mediation will be accomplished and Christ's role as son will be replaced by his role as Father, although he never becomes not-a-man.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the FIRST HEAVEN AND THE FIRST EARTH WERE PASSED AWAY; and there was no more sea.
I Corinthians 15:24 THEN COMETH the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
Revelation 21:1-7 reveals the time when Jesus will no longer be known as the subordinate, prophetically enabled Son of God. He will inherit the position of deity. At that time he will still be the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the giver of living water. Death will be eliminated, suffering, tears and pain will be forever wiped away, and there will be a new heaven and new earth. At that time, Jesus as God, Jesus Christ our brother reveals himself to be also our Everlasting Father.
Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I WILL BE HIS GOD, AND HE SHALL BE MY SON.
I Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, THEN shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.
CONCLUSION: The words "For he shall not speak of himself," in John 16:13 refer to the inhabiting Spirit of the exalted Christ. Jesus continues to possess his human capacities as well as his divine capacities even while he inhabits believers. He operates as a man must operate in relation to God who is the enabler of men. Jesus is enabled to speak by the Spirit of God though he is God and man, Father and son, child-born, son-given and Mighty God - Everlasting father, prophetic enabler and prophet. He continues to speak as he spoke on earth, as a prophet and mouthpiece of God. "for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:"

XI. Summary of the evidence presented on John 16:13 referring to the Lord Jesus Christ as the inhabiter of believers who continues to "not speak of himself, but to speak that which he heareth."

1. Jesus in John 14:16-18 was speaking of himself and clearly stated so in John 14:18, "I will not leave you comfortless." A pattern is thus established by Jesus of the use of cryptic or enigmatic expressions regarding the Spirit as the coming inhabiter which when more closely examined reveal Jesus to be the inhabiting Spirit.
2. Jesus at his exaltation and glorification was "made a quickening Spirit." I Corinthians 15:45.
3. Jesus' being made a "quickening Spirit" did not cause the existence of more than one inhabiting Spirit. I Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-5.
4. The one inhabiting Spirit is called variously the Spirit of God, the spirit of Christ, the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead, the Spirit of the Lord, Christ in you, etc. I Corinthians 12:3, Romans 8:9-11, Ephesians 3:16-17, II Corinthians 3:17.
5. God's Spirit, in the state in which he existed prior to the exaltation, glorification and being a man who was "made a quickening spirit," could not be directed, counseled or in other ways made an agent of God (Isaiah 40:13).
6. Only after the exalted Christ was made a "quickening Spirit" could it be stated that the Spirit would "not speak of himself, but will speak only that which he hears."
7. There is a similar pattern in John 14:16-18 and John 16:11-16 of presenting information about the Spirit that is enigmatic and information which is plain, and then presenting clues which solve the enigmatic language presented.
8. It was Jesus' practice to speak of the Father, of God or of the Spirit in enigmatic language, postponing until another "time" the plain revelations about the Father. John 16:25-26, I Timothy 6:14-16, I Corinthians 15:28, Hebrews 2:6, Revelation 21:1-7.
9. The explanation that the one Spirit inhabiting disciples who only "speaks what he hears" is actually the glorified Christ as inhabiter, answers all the essential questions regarding the identity and at-tributes of the inhabiting Spirit.
10. Even though Jesus is God and inhabits believers, he still possesses human attributes, and mediates between God and man, mediates regarding man's salvation, and, through the eternal prophetically enabling spirit, mediates God's words to men. I Timothy 2:15.
11. The fact that the inhabiting spirit has both human and divine identity and capacity does not mean that there are two persons in Christ, or that there are two divine persons, or that there are two persons in the believers. John 10:30, John 12:45, John 14:7-9, John 8:19, Isaiah 9:6.
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The angel announced, “For unto you is born this day.. .0 Saviour, which is CHRIST THE LORD.” Luke 2:11. Throughout the Old Testament God is also called the Lord. Compare the following:
The Lord God is the Creator. Is. 42:5.
The Lord Jesus is the Creator. John 1:3, 10.
The Lord God said, “I am He.” Is. 43:10.
The Lord Jesus said, “I am He.” John 8:24.
The Lord God is the only Saviour. Is. 43:10, 11.
The Lord Jesus is the Saviour. Titus 1:4.
The Lord God shall reign forever. P5. 146:10.
The Lord Jesus reign forever. Luke 1 :33.
The Lord God is the King of Israel. Is. 43:15.
The Lord Jesus is the King of Israel. Matt. 27:37.
The Lord God is the First and the Lost. Is. 44:6.
The Lord Jesus is the First and the Last. Rev. 1:8.
The Lord God is Almighty. Gen. 17:1.
The Lord Jesus is Almighty. Rev. 1:8.
There is only one Lord. Eph. 4:5. When Paul was struck down on the road to Damascus, he cried, “Who art thou, Lord?” And the Lord said, “I AM JESUS.” Acts 9:5. Beyond a shadow of a doubt the Lord God Jehovah of the Old Testament is the Lord Jesus Christ of the New Testament!
Jesus confirmed that He was not a separate Person, but God manifested in the flesh. Jesus said unto Philip, “.. .He that hath seen me hath seen the Father.. .The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself; but the father that DWELLETH IN ME, He doeth the works…Believe me that I am in the Father, and the FATHER IN ME…” John 14:9-11. Jesus simply stated, “I and My Father are ONE (not two).” John 10:30.
Jesus emphasized the importance of His identity as He taught the people in the temple. He said, “…For if ye believe not that I AM HE, ye shall die in your sins.. .They understood not that He spake to them of the FATHER.” John 8:24-27.
When Jesus was baptized by John in Jordan River, the voice of God spoke, “This is my beloved Son, IN WHOM I am well pleased.”
Matt. 3:17. Notice, God said, “IN WHOM” – not with whom! “To wit, that GOD WAS IN CHRIST, reconciling the world unto
Himself…” II Cor. 5:19.
As Stephen was facing death, he saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God. Acts 7:55. The term “right hand” does not form a part of another Person or Deity. It is symbolic of the power and authority of God. Jesus said, “All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.” Matt. 28:18. Paul said that Christ is the power and the wisdom of God. I Cor. 1:24. Note the following symbolical uses of the term “right hand” as correlated to power and authority:
My right hand hath spanned the heavens. Is. 48:13.
The Lord is at the right hand of the poor. Ps. 109:31.
God led Israel by the right hand of Moses. Is. 63:12.
The Lord was at David’s right hand. PS. 16:8.
The question may be asked, “Is Jesus in the Godhead, or is the Godhead in Jesus?” If the Godhead is in Jesus, there can only be one Person. The Bible clearly states, “For IN HIM (Christ) DWELLETH all the FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY. And ye are COMPLETE IN HIM, which is the HEAD OF ALL PRINCIPALITY AND POWER.” Col. 2:9, 10. So there is only ONE PERSON in which the Godhead is manifested, because the GODHEAD IS IN JESUS!
In Jesus Christ, two wills or natures are portrayed: a human will and a Divine will. He was man (flesh) and He was God (Spirit). As man He prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, “O my Father.. not as I WILL, but as THOU WILT.” Matt. 26:39. Also He cried out on the cross, “My God, my God. Why host thou forsaken me?” Matt. 27:46. Certainly these Scriptures do not imply that Jesus Christ is a separate Person or Deity with the Father. Far Deity does not pray to Deity! Futhermore, Deity cannot die! So as man, Jesus Christ prayed in His human nature to His Divine nature. Because, in His human nature, the flesh did not want to die, but He knew the will of the Spirit must be done. Also at Calvary He cried out in His human nature to His Divine nature; and when the Spirit left the body, He fulfilled His human role of death. As man, He was hungry, He slept, He became weary, He wept, He increased in wisdom and stature, He prayed, and He died. (See Matt. 4:2, Matt. 8:24, John 4:6, John 11,35, Luke 2:52, Matt. 26:39, Matt. 27:50.) As God, He healed the sick, He cast out devils, He raised the dead, He calmed the sea. He forgave sins, He answered prayer, and He arose from the grave. (See Matt. 4,23, Luke 8:35, John 11:43,44, Mark 4:39, Mark 2:5, John 14:14, John 2:19-21.) Jesus Christ said, “I can of mine own self (human nature) do nothing.. (John 5:30). ..but the FATHER that DWELLETH IN ME (Divine nature), HE doeth the works (John 14:10).” As man, He even expressed His limited knowledge (Mark 13:32); but as God, He knew all things (John 21:17). Compare the following titles which also portray the dual nature of Jesus Christ:
- See more at: http://www.apostolic-voice.org/tracts/the-truth-about-one-god#sthash.lNYyduiI.dpuf