mlculwell:Our Friend faithful witness has taken it upon himself to answer only half of a post that was written about John 1:1 and the trinity view but most of the critique dwells on the passage in Revelation 13:8...
FW:Oneness apologist Manuel Culwell has undertaken a "critique" of my exposition of John 1:1. I found his response to be rather humorous. I normally refrain from interacting with those who take a juvenile approach to apologetics, but this was just too rich to pass up.
mlculwell: We shall see if that is so when I am done.
Manuel: "(Rev. 13:8) says the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. Please tell us about the lamb having fellowship being eternally slain in the presence of God? "
FW:Ok Manuel. I'd be happy too. Lets look at that verse:
Revelation 13:8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. (esv)
mlculwell: I have argued this point many times FW with JW's and trinitarains and you offer nothing that I have not heard before or have not argued before I simply have to go over the same areas you are not familiar with by you submitting such nonsense, did you forget (1st. Peter 1:19-20)???? it looks as though you have, same thing I have had to go over with the JW's who think themselves more intellectual than they really are, as do you.
King James Bible
Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
American King James Version
For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers
But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
Who truly was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
American Standard Version
knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;
but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ: who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,
FW:Hmm. Wait a minute here Manuel. This verse doesn't seem to say what you said it did. The text speaks of the names that were not written before the foundation of the world. There is also another verse that seems to be correlated with 13:8. Lets look at that, perhaps you quoted the wrong verse?
mlculwell: I guess it depends on your favorite translation and the ESV seems to be yours and that of the Reformed.
FW:Revelation 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come.(esv)
mlculwell: This has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about but I will tell you the passage that does and why the KJB used common sense the ESV apparently lacks by not considering 1st. Peter 1:20!
FW:Nope, not this one either. Well Manuel, the only thing I can suggest is that you either learn to read Greek or you get a better bible. Your older translation is wrong, nearly every scholar and translator will agree. "Before the foundation of the world" can only modify "written" because of 17:8. Perhaps the moral of the day is, don't base your theology on a single verse taken from it's context.
mlculwell; First of all if anyone's name was added from the foun dation of the world it was all based upon the slaying of the lamb in sacrifice(1st. Cor. 15:21) you show yourself a complete lack of any and all common sense. Let's see what real experts say about the matter? Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
8. all that dwell upon the earth-being of earth earthy; in contrast to "them that dwell in heaven."
whose names are not written-A, B, C, Syriac, Coptic, and Andreas read singular, "(every one) whose (Greek, 'hou'; but B, Greek, 'hon,' plural) name is not written."
Lamb slain from the foundation of the world-The Greek order of words favors this translation. He was slain in the Father's eternal counsels: compare 1Pe 1:19, 20, virtually parallel. The other way of connecting the words is, "Written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb slain." So in Re 17:8. The elect. The former is in the Greek more obvious and simple. "Whatsoever virtue was in the sacrifices, did operate through Messiah's death alone. As He was "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world," so all atonements ever made were only effectual by His blood" [Bishop Pearson, Exposition of the Creed
International Standard Version (©2008)
All those living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life belonging to the lamb that was slaughtered from the foundation of the world.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Everyone living on earth will worship it, everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life. That book belongs to the lamb who was slaughtered before the creation of the world.
King James Bible
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
American King James Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
American Standard Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain.
Bible in Basic English
And all who are on the earth will give him worship, everyone whose name has not been from the first in the book of life of the Lamb who was put to death.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And all the dwell upon the earth adored him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb, which was slain from the beginning of the world.
Darby Bible Translation
and all that dwell on the earth shall do it homage, every one whose name had not been written from the founding of the world in the book of life of the slain Lamb.
English Revised Version
And all that dwell on the earth shall worship him, every one whose name hath not been written in the book of life of the Lamb that hath been slain from the foundation of the world.
Webster's Bible Translation
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Weymouth New Testament
And all the inhabitants of the earth will be found to be worshipping him: every one whose name is not recorded in the Book of Life--the Book of the Lamb who has been offered in sacrifice ever since the creation of the world.
World English Bible
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been killed.
Young's Literal Translation
And bow before it shall all who are dwelling upon the land, whose names have not been written in the scroll of the life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world;
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