One Trinitarain wrote the following and is very revealing how their view of God is polytheistic instead of the biblical monotheism(One God.)
"Isaiah 54:5 כִּי בֹעֲלַיִךְ עֹשַׂיִךְ, יְהוָה צְבָאוֹת שְׁמוֹ; וְגֹאֲלֵךְ קְדוֹשׁ יִשְׂרָאֵל, אֱלֹהֵי כָל-הָאָרֶץ יִקָּרֵא.
Psalm 149:2 יִשְׂמַח יִשְׂרָאֵל בְּעֹשָׂיו; בְּנֵי-צִיּוֹן, יָגִילוּ בְמַלְכָּם.
Ecclesiastes 12:1 וּזְכֹר, אֶת-בּוֹרְאֶיךָ, בִּימֵי, בְּחוּרֹתֶיךָ: עַד אֲשֶׁר לֹא-יָבֹאוּ, יְמֵי הָרָעָה, וְהִגִּיעוּ שָׁנִים, אֲשֶׁר תֹּאמַר אֵין-לִי בָהֶם חֵפֶץ.
All three of the above texts contain an interesting an often overlooked dynamic. Each of them contain a plural usage in regards God. In both the Isaiah and Psalm verses the word we read as "Maker" is literaly translated "Makers" in Hebrew. In addition the word "Creator" that we read in the Ecclesiastes passage is literally translated "Creators" in Hebrew. There are other passages using these same titles for God, however they use the singular form. This facet of the Old Testament fits perfectly within a Trinitarian understanding of God. This should come as no surprise, since the Trinity is a doctrine that is derived directly from the scriptures themselves. God has provided a tremendous amount of affirmation for the Trinity in the text of the Old Testament. Although the Trinity was not yet revealed until the New Testament, God left those of the old covenant without excuse in the form of many allusionary texts as seen."
I then replied to the above:What you are promoting is polytheism! There is nothing at all air tight about your argument it can be refuted easily and shows us that trinitarains are nothing but polytheists. "The so called makers" As I have shown many times before and especially in Gen.1:26 God included the son in creation. there is absolutely nothing to your argument!
To which I received the following:
"No sir, I am not promoting polytheism. Actually I am promoting a biblical doctrine of God. You would do well in obeying the whole counsel of scripture and not approaching the Old Testament with a Jewish doctrine of God. There is one God, I have said it many times. However, within the one being that is God there eternally exists three co-eternal co-equal persons. Polytheism is the belief in two or more gods. Clearly you are in error.
Mlculwell: You are promoting polytheism as you lack any clear understanding to reconcile your doctrine with scripture and your explanation is blind thoughtless polytheism .
If In fact your * makers* are "plural God persons" you are promoting polytheism. What the Oneness has in the makers includes the son in the coming incarnation as per Romans 5:14, and Gen.1:26. Let me be clear the son is not another person of God But is the real man that God the father incarnated and was us and our in creation in other words God included the real man as son in the coming incarnation as creator and maker thus your plural persons nonsesne(Not as another person of God)
"As I have shown many times before and especially in Gen.1:26 God included the son in creation."
"You are absolutley right. The plural referneces that God has made to himself include the Son and for the matter, the Spirit as well".
mlculwell: Of Course I am right! But you are inserting your false doctrine of polytheism. Adam was the figure of him that was to come. what was to come? Jesus as a real human being or man incarnated (That was the image and likeness Adam was created in)
"They are all eternal. Therefore, only the Trinity can satisfy the plural texts and the monotheistic decrees of the Old Testament. Besides, your explanation cannot cannot explain the various other plural passages as seen in the OT, simply because they do not have there context has nothing to do with creation".
mlculwell: There are no "they all are eternal"(Gods as in polytheism) but again you reveal your polytheism. The biblical understanding is Oneness alone! Our view is the only viable explanation of the plural passages that does not harm biblical monotheism of both the Old and New Testaments.
8 comments:
Michael asked:
Manuel let me ask you three questions. Please answer them with a "yes" or "no" for the sake of clarity.
1. Is the "Father" God?
2. Is the "Son" God?
3. Is the "Holy Spirit" God?
Yes Michael, the father, son, and spirit are God(not three persons) Just like I am a father, son, and and husband and not three persons!
Jesus is not his own father but God as spirit and father miraculously overshadowed Mary causing the conception(Math.1:19) The spirit of God fathered the man as as son.(Not another person of God)
July 15, 2009 7:16 AM
Michael said...
"Yes Michael, the father, son, and spirit are God(not three persons) Just like I am a father, son, and and husband and not three persons!"
That was not quite the clear answer I had in mind. Please clarify with either a yes or a no to each question respectivley. I ask this simply to understand your position, not to be difficult.
I was away for a bit, and that is why I didn't immediatley reply.
July 15, 2009 8:23 AM
mlculwell said...
Do not ask me a question and then proceed to tell me how to answer! I could easily say yes to each, but it does not clarify my position as it would not yours either.
Jesus is God because he was made Both Lord and Christ(Acts 2:36) Not because he pre-existed as some fictitious "god the son."
So yes to 1.) 2.)3.) but not as "three persons of God" as scriptures do not teach such!
Michael said...
Manuel, I did not tell you how to answer. I simply asked that you not provide one answer to three distinct questions. Why are these questions so difficult for you to answer directly?
mlculwell said...
They are not difficult! You are not going to twist my answers to suit you and your false doctrine.
I answered you!" So yes to 1.) 2.)3.)"
But with my commentary on what is meant by my answers so as you cannot twist the answers.
By telling me to answer yes or no is telling me how to answer. The question is limiting and clarifies nothing it is an old debaters trick like do you still beat your wife answer yes or no variables are not allowed to whether or not you even have a wife or whether and being told to answer yes or not incriminates either way. Do not be silly with your questions as they make you appear dishonest.
"Can any of these become not God?
mlculwell: Become not God? What does that mean?
Let me re-word that question for clarity. If you affirm that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all God respectivley, can these become less than or other than God in your view"?
mlculwell: I do not know what you mean! Even in trying to clarify your question. So I will attempt your question in simpler terms so you can understand as everyone who reads.
A horse that becomes a duck is no longer a horse. But what you are doing is denying Jesus real humanity! You have "god the son" becoming a man.In hybrid new species mix a Hercules of sorts neither one or the other .You will deny it but it is trinity doctrine.
July 15, 2009 8:53 AM
"I do not know what you mean!"
By your own admission, you affirmed the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit respectivley.
mlculwell: Of course! But I do not ascribe your unscriptual view of "three persons"
My question is, if these are God as you say, do they or can they change and become something other than God?
mlculwell: That would be your view as you have God the son becoming other than God ie (Your hybrid mix) Oneness does not mix the divinity and humanity we affirm a real distinction between the humanity that died and the divinity that could not(So we deny your charge!)
I have corrected this very same error in past dialogue with you. You are incorrect in claiming that the Trinitarian position mixes the dual natures of the Lord Jesus Christ.
mlculwell: You have corrected nothing! Your chalcedon nonsense that is on the same level as the book of mormon only leaves more questions as it answers nothing it simply makes a claim that we both make that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man. How we we both make that claim and believe it are two different things.
To provide proof for this I have provided the related excerpts from the Council of Chalcedon which took place in 451AD:
"He was begotten before the ages from the Father as regards his divinity, and in the last days the same for us and for our salvation from Mary, the virgin God-bearer, as regards his humanity; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten, acknowledged in two natures which undergo no confusion, no change, no division, "no separation"; at no point was the difference between the natures taken away through the union, but rather the property of both natures is preserved and comes together into a single person and a single subsistent being…"
mlculwell: let me ask you like this? Did Jesus have a real human spirit? No division means you mix he is neither all God or all man as mix!
Judging from your last comment, I am going to assume that in your view, the deity of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Spirit is unchanging. Is this correct?
mlculwell: Yes the deity of the father, son, and spirit is unchanging! But there was no separate or distinct deity of "god the son" who pre-existed! His pre-existent deity was God the father(John 14:10,2nd Cor.5:19)
July 15, 2009 9:40 AM
mlculwell: said...
"it simply makes a claim that we both make that Jesus is 100% God and 100% man"
Michael: This is also incorrect and illogical. The Lord Jesus Christ is FULLY man and FULLY God. These two natures are not confused in any way.
mlculwell: Thank you for your affirmation of the false doctrine I have been charging you trinitarains with! To deny Jesus is 100% man and then claim he is "fully man" is denial Of Jesus real humanity and actually denies he is fully man and is a mix ie. your cultic clinging of the Mormon level Chalcedon nonsense!
Jesus had a spirit and the Spirit residing within Him.
mlculwell: Thank you again "he had a spirit" but not a human spirit! because he is not a rela man to you but a hybrid mix and you are simply repeating your false mantra he is fully man well he cannot be fully man with a divine spirt animating a puppet body!
He has His spirit; which is the eternal metaphysical divine essence. To answer your question directly, His spirit was both a real human spirit and a divine spirit. Hence the two natures which are distinct and real.
mlculwell: A mix spirit is neither one or the other! Splain how it is?
"Yes the deity of the father, son, and spirit is unchanging!"
By your own admission, you have affirmed the eternal deity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
mlculwell: Yes Once again yes but I deny your false doctrine of "god the son" the deity of the son is God the father in the incarnation any passage that speaks to the deity of the of the son is inclusive of the incarnation and not in spite of it! in other words Jesus was made the creator by him being given the spirit and All power(John 3:34.Math.28:18) Not because of your misinterpretation of scripture where you insert your false doctrine.
If the Son is God and unchanging, then He must be eternal.
mlculwell: The son was made the eternal spirit as his sonship had a beginning( acts 2:36,Heb.1:6,Gal.4:4,1st.Cor.15:45-46)
You have contradicted your position fatally, and actually affirmed the Trinitarian position.
mlculwell: I am very happy with my position and am glad to refute yours!
'Manuel,
You have backed yourself into a corner by affirming the deity of the Son.
mlculwell: I am afraid not! the deity of the son is not the son! I did not affirm such nonsesne.
First you said "I answered you! So yes to 1.) 2.)3.)" when asked if the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God RESPECTIVELY. Then you said "Yes the deity of the father, son, and spirit is unchanging," thereby affirming the immutability of the Son as God.
mlculwell: I gave the passages that you ignore to try and make yourself look as though actually know what you are talking about and then you dishonestly try and wrangle what I say to your way of thinking hos is that intellectual honesty? That is childishness!
The contradiction of your position is in your affirmation of the Son as God and this statement: "His pre-existent deity was God the father." So in actuality you cannot affirm the deity of the Son of God, only an indwelling of the deity.
mlculwell: The deity of the son was given the son! Yes I deny your false doctrine.Oh and I ma Oneness we claim Jesus is the ONLY SUPREME GOD!~ what do you say? More dishonesty from you.You can show us more dishonesty by not posting this but it will be posted on my blog.
To conclude; in this discussion you have manage to deny the deity of Jesus Christ who is the Son of God.
mlculwell: No such thing I only deny your unscriptual view the son of God is the flesh given the deity
( Acts 2:36,Heb.1:6,Gal.4:4,1st.Cor.15:45-46)
While I am sure that will attack me, and provide numerous unrelated statements to prove the contrary, this FACT is now documented. Please see the error of your position, repent and believe the gospel.'
mlculwell: You are funny and dishonest at the same time.
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