James White writes the following from his book The Forgotten Trinity
Chapter 12 pg 171 A Closer Look
James writes: "There are three kinds of beings who are personal:God,
men, and Angels. I have being ,I exist, Yet I am personal.My being is
personal and finite.It is limited to one place geographically
speaking,and one time temporarily speaking."
There are more gems from this book but this is damning enough to ask; where does Jesus
stand in this? Will anyone come to Jame's defense? I cannot wait to dig out more .
Which Being Is Jesus? Is he the being of man, or the being of God, or
the new being of both?
I ask this question because James is Caught in a dilemma with his doctrine He quotes on the same page;" the divine being( God) is One"( being) the divine(God) persons are (shared by) three" (persons.)( parenthesis are mine)
Which Being Is Jesus humanity? Is he the being of man, or the being of God, or
the new being of both? Humanity most definitely is being. This contradicts White in his book.
To be fair I submitted this critique on my debate group and received the following reply from a Trinitarian.
"The content of the quotation you included does not directly deal with this question, as Mr. White's point is not to consider the relation of the human to the divine in Jesus but to demonstrate that there is a 'personal' aspect of God and angels and humans.
Notwithstanding that, there is nothing directly in this quotation that would preclude Jesus from being located within its categories.
If you supplied the surrounding context it would probably present a far better overview of Mr. White's thinking along this particular argument".
I will do just that!
James writes on page 158 -160 How that Jesus is One person with two natures. James continues "he is not two persons nor are his natures somehow mixed together."
Very good, that gives us something to work with. What I do not see in all of Jame's book is an answer to these important question. Natures do not die, people die!
At the outset James stated; "he was one being", is not Jesus real humanity a being? He simply never says in his book, that I can see. (James makes an attempt in pages 66-70) of his book but nothing really meaningful. God is One Being, Jesus is a real human being, thus in my estimation we have two beings, "one of these things are not like the other." to quote the ol Sesame street song. We do not have two beings of God, we also do not have two of the same beings, we have one human being, and one being of God. In the incarnation, if true, we have two beings, but not two persons, God is not a person , persons die...When Jesus died as to his real humanity the being of God did not die, God cannot die. The Trinitarian view of Jesus would be a new being. Just because you equivocate with the copout of natures does not excuse us of answering these questions that are important. I believe the trinitarian view of being and person is weak and showcase those weak areas of thier doctrine especially since Dr. White is the contemporary Authority on the subject.
Faithful Witness said...
Your critique has a fatal flaw. You fail to understand what a "being" is and what a "person" is. These are not terms that are synonyms.
The definition of being: What makes SOMETHING what it is.
The definition of person: What makes SOMEONE who they are.
A grasp of these terms will serve you greatly in your critique of Dr. White's book.
mlculwell said...
I am both a human being and a person so is Jesus. You dishonestly cannot admit that otherwise your doctrine is polytheism(Too many beings for the trinity) That fatal flaw is your doctrine and James Whites doctrine the trinity is just plain contradictory...
Faithful Witness said....
"Jesus was both a real 100% human being and the real 1oo% being Known as God."
This is absolutely illogical. He (meaning the Son of God) was FULLY God and FULLY man. That is to say, He is fully God as to His divine nature, and fully man as to His human nature. This is what the orthodox doctrine of the hypostatic union (and for that matter the bible) teaches (council of chalcedon 451AD).
mlculwell: Oneness says Jesus is 100% man and 100% God! So the 100% God would be the being and nature of God and the 100% man would be the being and nature of God but it seems you have a new being of neither.... You mix natures, which is the being of a real man and the being of the real God?
<
span style="font-weight:bold;">Faithful Witness said...
"You mix natures, which is the being of a real man and the being of the real God?"
No, Trinitarians don't mix the two natures. That would be the complete opposite of what we believe. Read the council and you will clearly see this truth. You are in error and clearly ignorant of the Trinitarian position. Jesus has had and will always maintain an eternal divine nature. He is the eternal Son of God, and is every thing God is; He is fully God. Jesus took upon Himself a human nature. This is an additional nature, not a substitute or combination. He did not divest Himself of a single attribute of His deity. Instead, He became a servant, taking on human form (an additional nature). He then became obedient to the Father, even unto death.
mlculwell...What a sham! "Jesus has had and will always maintain an eternal divine nature.He is the eternal son of God"?
One part of God is simply calling the other daddy and the other son in name only in a sham fake relationship of himself? man do you think at all about what you are saying that is your problem you quote some Creed or confession like it is the word of God irregardless how bad it sounds or contradicts scripture! God the father did not and could not put down his power but hid his power in the son.(Jesus as limited son or being as real man) had no power of his own(John 5:30) But was given his power(Math.28:18) the being God took on the being of the real man it was not two beings of God it was one real being of man and one real being of God which you deny! Jesus as a real limited man did not even know the time of his own second coming but the father only(Mark 13:32) Your version of (Philippians 2:6) of a pre-incarnate Jesus is polytheism as you have God equal to God(Two Gods) The one who thinks himself as God equal to God.Think about it? there is no such thing as an "eternal son of God" that is fakery and nonsense!
5 comments:
"I am both a human being and a person so is Jesus."
You are a human being. Your humanity is what makes up your being. You are by essence a human. In other words, you possess "humanness." Your being however is not who you are. If that were true, all human beings would be you, and that my friend would be rather strange. Your personage is what makes you who you are. Your personage is not your essence.
I agree, Jesus is both a human being (He possessed a human nature) and a person. He was in fact personal. The word being in and of itself does carry with it anything personal.
Think of it this way: Your bicycle is a being. It has bikeness. It cannot communicate, it cannot think, it cannot do anything remotely personal. It is not a person, but because it actually exists in reality, it is a being.
Remember, a being is not a who, but a what. A person is not a what, but a who. Your last comment revealed the fact that you simply do not understand these words and the basis for them.
"You mix natures, which is the being of a real man and the being of the real God?"
No, Trinitarians don't mix the two natures. That would be the complete opposite of what we believe. Read the council and you will clearly see this truth. You are in error and clearly ignorant of the Trinitarian position. Jesus has had and will always maintain an eternal divine nature. He is the eternal Son of God, and is every thing God is; He is fully God. Jesus took upon Himself a human nature. This is an additional nature, not a substitute or combination. He did not divest Himself of a single attribute of His deity. Instead, He became a servant, taking on human form (an additional nature). He then became obedient to the Father, even unto death.
Is your silence to my last comment is a signal of your failure to prop up your doctrine of God?
There was no silence. I posted my answer to you on the already existing blog, apparently you must have thought you actually had something.
Faithful Witness
There is a comment missing. It must have been lost.
Are going to take up the challenge?
I posted my response on the blog at the end but since you keep missing it here it is.
I have a debate coming up with Frank Turk after Mr. Deskin is done. But I will post a refutation on original sin nonsense here soon
mlculwell...What a sham! "Jesus has had and will always maintain an eternal divine nature.He is the eternal son of God"?
One part of God is simply calling the other daddy and the other son in name only in a sham fake relationship of himself? man do you think at all about what you are saying that is your problem you quote some Creed or confession like it is the word of God irregardless how bad it sounds or contradicts scripture! God the father did not and could not put down his power but hid his power in the son.(Jesus as limited son or being as real man) had no power of his own(John 5:30) But was given his power(Math.28:18) the being God took on the being of the real man it was not two beings of God it was one real being of man and one real being of God which you deny! Jesus as a real limited man did not even know the time of his own second coming but the father only(Mark 13:32) Your version of (Philippians 2:6) of a pre-incarnate Jesus is polytheism as you have God equal to God(Two Gods) The one who thinks himself as God equal to God.Think about it? there is no such thing as an "eternal son of God" that is fakery and nonsense!
Post a Comment