The nail in the coffin and Faithful Witness

Let's not forget to whom I am replying and who wrote this mess I am answering Faithful witness.

FW:Was Christ simply the flesh of God? Or was Christ a fleshly manifestation of God?

mlculwell:Yes Jesus was the flesh(A real man) God indwelt! " Indwelling" is not apart of the doctrine of the trinity! god to you is a trinity therefore I am correct in saying perechorisis is the doctrine of the interpenetration of God persons a rather silly doctrine where God overlaps each person.Yes: Jesus was God manifest in the flesh(1st. Tim.3:16)




FW: Or was He a personification of the wisdom of God in flesh?


mlculwell: Jesus was Given the spirit of Wisdom(Isa. 11:2)


FW:I just wanna get my heresy detector calibrated here.

mlculwell; You should know heresy very well since you are so closely associated with it in your doctrine.


FW:The doctrine of indwelling or perechorisis is an undeniable truth.

mlculwell: indwelling is not perechorisis!


FW:Unfortunatley, your wikipedia definition didn't do it justice. Perhaps you should go a little deeper.

mlculwell:most of the trinity folk I know and especially on the carm boards will deny the indwelling and will usually take me to their doctrine of perechorisis, you can say you believe in indwelling but you are speaking more of the Oneness doctrine when you do so and it is not perechorisis!

FW:Stop by my blog and look for the post "nail in the coffin," there I touched on this doctrine.

Mlculwell: I am going to deal with your blog, point for point here and take it apart. First I will resubmit what was written about your actual doctrine of Perechorisis taught by the majority of trinity folk.



A popular argument from trinity folk on their so called doctrine of "perechorisis" goes something like this:

John14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves

"Here the Son is stating that He is in the Father. How is this possible if the Son is the flesh?
first the son is not just flesh.

The Disciples were in the father and son(John 17:21) As Spirit, God was able to put any human there. they were in the son because he was God manifest in flesh, he was also in heaven but standing before them as Spirit as the spirit of God put his flesh there(John 3:13) I believe the actual right of mankind to have the spirit was yet future(John 7:38-39) as the spirit had not yet been purchased through his slain flesh(1st. Cor.15:21)

I would make a plea to trinitarians to Stop using that argument .
God is spirit we can be in him and he in us, the only difference is the Spirit was given to Jesus without measure. (John 3:34)we have a measure(Eph.4:7)




FW:There are those within the oneness movement that love to expound on the fact that the bible does not provide us with a spelled-out text that proves the shared divine essence of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. This they claim is the trump card of modalism. Certainly, essence was the concern, and rightly so in my opinion, at Nicea in 325AD. This was due primarily because of what was at stake; the deity of Jesus Christ. The Arian heresy was in full swing in those days. The majority of Bishops had bought into this devious belief prior to the council.

Mlculwell: I believe in a divine shared essence, but not between God persons, rather between the spirit of God(the father) and his real son the man Christ Jesus.9John 17:21) This is the indwelling spirit of God we are in unity of the spirit(John 17:21 spirit and flesh) Just like Jesus only the flesh and spirit of Jesus is by no measure.(John 3:34) Christians indwelling are a measure of the spirit(Eph. 4:7)

Arianism has nothing to do with what we are talking about and no council of man takes presidence over God and his word, if it does, then the creeds should be in scripture.


FW:Now, I will give credit where credit is due. Oneness believers do tend to hold strongly to the bible, even more so than many Trinitarian churches.

mlculwell: yes that is correct and the reason why we believe the Oneness of God(The scriptures teaching on God)and you believe the trinity.

FW:I recently went to one apostolic church where various scriptures were on huge signs on the walls. The high view given to the scriptures within these churches is great, but is that what makes their doctrine sound?

mlculwell: I would say it is and although a nice read we put no stock in creeds of men if they are wrong then we will be wrong! You have no way in knowing those men are correct you simply assume they were based on them being closer to the time of the Apostles. This flawed thinking we were already warned that false teaching was around and becoming even greater. Hymeneus and Philetus were right there with the Apostles and were even known by name but still managed to teach false doctrine with the Apostles being right there!(2nd. Tim. 2:15) Friend how much more being thousands of years removed?



FW:The fundamental question is, when it comes to God and His revelation, what is He concerned with? What is the scripture's focus so far as the doctrine of God? After considering the full counsel of the bible, what do we find being most expounded upon?

mlculwell; I contend that you destroy any credibility for your doctrine by admitting that Oneness puts greater emphasis on scripture than even trinity folk and it is true we do! I myself put zero emphasis on creeds or so called church fathers and I do not claim any of them as my fathers accept the apostles in scripture!(John 17:17-20) Neither pray I for these alone but for all them that shall believe on me through their words(Who are their?) The creeds? NO! The so called fathers? No!




FW:The focus of the bible, concerning the doctrine of God, is not essence.God may very well have an essence, but the concern of the scriptures lies elsewhere. The bible declares that all three are co-equal in divinity and united absolutely.

mlculwell; Where do I find the above passage you just qouted as truth? It does not exist, nor is it You created this creed for yourself and must prove it by the most remote inference from scripture for instance you see father, son, and spirit. All three titles are of the one God but where do find that God is three persons? wait a minute do you see what I just did? I made an inference like you and did not prove it! Oh, I can prove it, but why should I, when that is all you have done for your doctrine?

FW:The relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit is a personal one, and it is not based on some abstract essence. The scriptures are concerned with their relationship as three persons. Each of them indwells one another,

mlculwell: Perfect textbook trinity doctrine of perechorisis ie. interpenetration of persons that he denied above. Why if we have One single God do we need interpentration of persons? It is ridiculous. This is simply one way to attempt to get around the accusation of polytheism. God also indwells Christians,(John 17:21) but there are multiple, upon multiple persons that he indwells, this is not one mankind that he indwells , Just like there are multiple persons he indwells, their multiple persons of God are multiple Gods!(polytheism)



FW:every time you consider or read about one, you get them all. To loose focus on the biblical concern is to overshadow the most plain truth about God; that God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, united, undivided, and resolutely equal and distinct. This is the nail in the coffin of the oneness doctrine.

mlculwell: The biblical son in the incarnation is united with the father through the spirit. Spirit and flesh real God and real man, very God and very man! The distinction is not between God persons. The distinction is only between the real man who as limited in knowledge as son, did not even know the time of his own coming(Mark 13:32) But the father Only. because the father is that which incarnated the son and had not yet revealed such as the one all knowing God incarnated in flesh (John 14:10) The son could do nothing in and of himself (John 5:30)but only as it was given him through the all powerful spirit.(Matt.28:18,John 3:34, Acts 2:36, 1st. Cor. 15:45-46) If there is a nail in the coffin for Oneness then I would like to see it but there is no nail but that which you falsely have set up in your own mind.


FW:In the next coming posts, I will display a comprehensive list of forshadowings of the Triune God that are found within the Old Testament.

mlculwell: That is real nice, But I would first like to see the nail you have put in the coffin for Oneness that you were talking about? I believe friend you are very delusional.