How many gods does it take to screw in a light bulb? I know the old joke seems kind of irreverent but it needs to be said; because no longer does the trinitarian simply say:" God is three persons" but you will now hear very often in addition to " God is three persons" ( 3 persons are Something scripture, nor any writer of any books of the Bible mentioned.)"God is with God" and unashamedly so. This is conceptual tritheism at it's worst, and blatantly so.
No God does not intercede for us in the presence of God! Jesus died Once for all. That means his sinless sacrifice was the intercession on our behalf. It fulfills what God demanded for sin once for all.(Hebrews 10:5-7)
Note He said: in the world; not in eternity as another person of God but in the world. I have come to do your will.(Not my human will) but your God will. You will also notice the prophecy says:"My God." The Oneness position understands these prophecies Such as (Psalm 45:7KJV) as incarnation-al and not of pre-existent conversations between God.5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings
you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll—
I have come to do your will, my God.
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.The Psalm passage prophetically claims that he is God, but is he a different God from his own God? This is where the trinitarian keeps making the same distinction error because of the incarnation. Jesus is that same one God and what is prophetically in Psalm 45:7 as it refers to the coming incarnation. The very same incarnation the psalm passage and Later Hebrews 1:9 quotes from. It was Jesus divinity; that of God the Father that incarnated him as son, that also pre-existed.(John14:10)
Jesus was not only the priest but was the lamb sacrificed ie. his sinless flesh. That same sinless flesh sacrificed is what pleads our case in his priestly duties. However, it does not mean the son stands and begs God in eternity. What the trinitarian means is that God somehow begs himself (One person as God) in the presence of himself(the other person of God) in eternity on our behalf. Does it need to be said that the very idea is silly anti-biblical doctrine?
The trinitarian will be quick to say that the son of God is a term of divinity. The son even if he were a god the son as god he did not know the time of his own second coming.The trinitarian will confuse the incarnation misinterpreting, misapplying, and misquoting a passage in (John 10:30-39) to attempt to prove the doctrine.
The trinitarain will attempt to say that they understood the phrase and term:" son of God" meant he was claiming divinity and this would be known to them but careful reading of the text reveals no such thing. They clearly stated they saw a man claiming equality with the father ie. God. Now that is some fancy twisting of the text to come up with such a fanciful trick. Jesus said he and the father were One. A union of God(The Father) and son as in the incarnation.
"I and my Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, "I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?" The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be equal to God." Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? "If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? "If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father."
We see Jesus had a limited Mind in (Mark 13:32.) No man knows the hour, or the day, of Jesus second coming no not the Angels, or even the son, but the Father Only. There is that distinction of minds and knowing. How could Jesus not know something as God? You say he is "God the son" but the passage said he did not know the time of his second coming. The trinitarian says it was the self imposed limitation which is truth, but the son or genuine humanity incarnated by God the father was that self imposed limitation. However It was not "god the son" imposing limitation. Again, Jesus genuine humanity and sonship incarnated by God was that limitation. He could have called ten thousand Angels at anytime to do his bidding as God in the flesh but chose to accomplish the work or will of the father.
God did not have two or three God minds or wills. He had 1 ultimate God mind and will and 1 limited human mind in the incarnation. Again, that is not two minds of God, or two human minds. The trinitarian seems to disregard the incarnation and confuse that in Jesus and that is where they run into trouble with conceptual tritheism in trying to force the trinity doctrine upon scripture.
(Hebrews 9:11-15)But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
There is One mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.(1st.Tim.2:5)
13 comments:
"God is with God" and unashamedly so. This is conceptual tritheism at it's worst, and blatantly so.
How is it conceptual tritheism, beyond your bare assertion?
Note He said: in the world; not in eternity as another person of God but in the world.
If Christ is coming 'into' the world, there would seem to be a conceptual distinction made between him 'coming' and his 'being in.' One doesn't 'come into' something of which one is already 'in.'
It was Jesus divinity; that of God the Father that incarnated him as son, that also pre-existed.(John14:10)
Obviously Jesus' divinity pre-existed; but this pre-existent divinity is predicated of the Son in numerous places such as John 1 and Colossians 1.
What the trinitarian means is that God somehow begs himself (One person as God) in the presence of himself(the other person of God) in eternity on our behalf. Does it need to be said that the very idea is silly anti-biblical doctrine?
You really don't have any concept of what Trinitarianism understands viz-a-viz the Trinitarian relations, do you? But thank you for conferring upon yourself the gift of clarivoyance so as to know what Trinitarians really mean!
Jesus said he and the father were One. A union of God(The Father) and son as in the incarnation.
Since there are two subjects here of whom equality is predicated, your position puts you in the awkward position of implying that Jesus' humanity qua his humanity (the son, as you say) is equal to God. No wonder they wanted to stone him if that was his meaning!
How could Jesus not know something as God? You say he is "God the son" but the passage said he did not know the time of his second coming.
You should read St. Augustine's De Trinitate. He outlines a rather reasonable means of interpreting the term 'son' in regards to the human substance or the divine substance. But since I doubt you will, one rather immediate explanation is that Jesus in his human nature would clearly not know something like this. Once again you seem to think that the term 'son' must be used univocally every time it is encountered, which is a rather tendentious approach to language.
The trinitarian seems to disregard the incarnation and confuse that in Jesus and that is where they run into trouble with conceptual tritheism in trying to force the trinity doctrine upon scripture.
More unsubstantiated assertions. How precisely does Trinitarian theology confuse anything in Jesus?
God did not have two or three God minds or wills. He had 1 ultimate God mind and will and 1 limited human mind in the incarnation.
Trinitarian theology does not assert that God has three minds or wills. That you assert it does either belies your ignorance or your intellectual dishonesty. Your arguments would have more force if you didn't constantly distract yourself with setting strawmen on fire.
MLC writes:What the trinitarian means is that God somehow begs himself (One person as God) in the presence of himself(the other person of God) in eternity on our behalf. Does it need to be said that the very idea is silly anti-biblical doctrine?
Jason writes:You really don't have any concept of what Trinitarianism understands viz-a-viz the Trinitarian relations, do you? But thank you for conferring upon yourself the gift of clarivoyance so as to know what Trinitarians really mean!
I write:Yeah ok, Am I wrong? Ok then, one God begs the other God. Right?
Jason the whole point of this is to highlight what trinitarains are now saying and unashamedly so. I was fair in stating they no longer simply say "One person was speaking to another." We Oneness at least make a genuine distinction between his humanity and his divinity.
I am using what your side has said in debates. You argue with me for Mary being the Mother of God but not of the other God the father and now you want to argue one God is not begging the other God? Astounding. That is the very problem of inconsistency I am high lighting in trinity doctrine. You have proved that here in your comments and do not know it. I am being fair and that is why we reject trinity doctrine as blatant polytheism. Jesus told us many would be deceived it seems the whole so called Christian world is deceived into believing trinity doctrine as One God.
Jason I posted your comment. I do not see any refutation from but again as usual you are prententous in thinking you have one as you have done so many times before.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
If God is with God how many Gods are there Jason? I count two and you do not see conceptual tri-theism?
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
Christ refers to His ministry work and the claim is he was already in the world doing the will of the father.
We argue all day back and forth.
You cannot strip the incarnation from the son. but you will.We both claim pre-existence as God you as The son and confuse that which was Born of a virgin and was incarnated. The father incarnated him(John 14:10) the father that dwells in me he does the works. There is no clearer passage. 2nd Cor.5:19 also makes a distinction. God was In Christ reconciling the world unto himself. " pre-existence was Predicated of the son... We say that also, but the son was the man whom God incarnated you again confuse that and twist to your own device. Was it the son born of Mary? Hmm?It was the incarnation that made that son born of Mary pre-exist. Jason my advice to you if you want to defend your false doctrine then Go debate your cause but debating in my comments box is not going to help you.
Jason writes:You should read St. Augustine's De Trinitate. He outlines a rather reasonable means of interpreting the term 'son' in regards to the human substance or the divine substance.
MLC:The term son for Jesus is inclusive of Both his divinity and humanity and did not exist without the incarnation.
Jason:But since I doubt you will, one rather immediate explanation is that Jesus in his human nature would clearly not know something like this.
MLC:Jason, that is the very thing Oneness says.
Jason:Once again you seem to think that the term 'son' must be used univocally every time it is encountered, which is a rather tendentious approach to language.
MLC:Jason,The term son every time it is encountered in scripture for Jesus is God manifest in the flesh. It is not exclusive of a god the son doctrine pre-existing nor is it of Just a man. But his not knowing was the genuine limitation of the humanity placed upon the incarntion.
Jason:Trinitarian theology does not assert that God has three minds or wills. That you assert it does either belies your ignorance or your intellectual dishonesty. Your arguments would have more force if you didn't constantly distract yourself with setting strawmen on fire.
MLC: Um Yes it does Jason! Go listen to the James White Roger Perkins debate and tell me Dr. White is not making the very argument? He is the Foremost authority in arguing the case for the doctrine with his 100's of debate Roger Perkins with the Help of God was able to flesh out that wonderful gem. So If you do not want Dr. James White defining for you the trinity doctrine; my suggestion is do your own debating.
Catholic Encyclopedia Docetism
(Greek Doketai.)
A heretical sect dating back to Apostolic times. Their name is derived from dokesis, "appearance" or "semblance", because they taught that Christ only "appeared" or "seemed to be a man, to have been born, to have lived and suffered. Some denied the reality of Christ's human nature altogether, some only the reality of His human body or of His birth or death. The word Docetae which is best rendered by "Illusionists"
MLC:I believe the scriptures teach Jesus was a genuine man with a genuine human spirit,will, mind, intellect as well as the One genuine God who in totality is called Father(Malachi 2:10, John 14:10)
It is clear that Jason does not understand his own Trinity doctrine. EVERY Trinitarian apologist I know unashamedly confesses that God exists with "3-centers of consciousness" - Or else they have "mindless divine persons."
As Bro. Culwell pointed out - Trinitarianism is crystal-clear conceptual Tritheism - & I am so thankful that Jesus led me out of it into biblical Christianity.
If Jesus is God (He is) He has to be this God mentioned by Malachi.
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers?
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
Here is the debate where he says God has 3 centers of consciousness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvxF7Js9mw8&google_comment_id=z133vjlwuozrufjpd04cfrvqasnmtr45igo
MLC:It is a Gnostic doctrine and denies Jesus genuine humanity! You have falsely accused me and stated I must defend myself against your charge. You simply charged me with no proof!
Jason Watson:Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension then, as I already wrote at least a paragraph of explanation concerning this.
MLC:Shaking of Head. Your whole reason for rabidly stalking me here is because you do not like the fact that I refuse to use your thoughtless language. "God died" "God was born" "Mary was the mother of God"
Jason:Succinctly- since in your view God is not the subject of Jesus' acts, the union of divinity and humanity in Jesus could be only apparent, but hardly real.
MLC:Jason, Psalm 121:3-4 says God never sleeps, he is always watching.
But Jesus as a genuine man slept(Mark 4:38)
Both God and man exist in Jesus at the same time.
Unlike you, I rightfully attribute both to Jesus, but with a clear distinction you confuse. Because of the incarnation and the two realities found of Jesus you cannot confuse the two or you have neither God, nor man, but something else.
You will refuse my explanation because you have been doing this for years starting on my debate group on yahoo many years back.
Jason:In other words, the logical conclusion of your position is that Jesus (who you maintain is the Father incarnated) does not really have a body since the acts of that human substance cannot be properly attributed to God.
MLC:The Father(God) has a Body, that body and genuine man is the son of God. I have already stated in another post like the scriptures God shed his own Blood.(Acts 20:28)
You on the other hand do not have God with a body really because you are equivocating. Your god is a trinity. only a third of god had a body. Thus by your own criteria you are admitting you are docetist. You will then come back and say what is attributed to one person is attributed to all.
So for 3 days were missing all of God? God died? You do not believe that. His genuine sinless humanity died.
Jason: So whether one is arguing that Jesus' body was not literally material or that God does not posses the human substance as being the subject of its acts, the end result is not meaningfully different.
MLC:I think you argue just to argue. God gave the man his own spirit by no measure.The man possessed the spirit by no measure. This was not Spirit possession of a puppet Jason!
Jason: I would restate why this is not incompatible with a Docetist understanding, but I've already explained that before and it's there to be revisited.
part 1
part 2
MLC: You really do not know what you are talking about. But I know you will simply keep blathering on and on.
MLC:I greatly espouse the genuine humanity of the son incarnated by God.
Jason:I never said that you didn't 'greatly espouse it,' nor can you point to a place where I have. Rather, my point was that since in your view God is not the subject of the human substance's acts, God is not actually incarnated and thus has not actually come in the flesh, which is St. John's critique of nascent Docetism in 1 John.
"God is not the subject of the human substance acts?" Well, a ventriloquist would be the subject of the dummies acts. Right? What is the difference between your explanation and the ventriloquist then? God and man at the same time both exist in Jesus. You refuse one to posit your trinity doctrine of god the son. The only thing that is really meaningful to you. Which does not exist in scripture by the way.
Jason: Again, whether that body is literally material (which Docetists within their particular philosophical presuppositions could have actually maintained given the view of the relation of the material to the ideal) or not doesn't change the fact that in both cases (i.e., yours and the Docetists) the human substance's acts cannot be meaningfully predicated of God. That is is deeper significance that St. John and the early polemicists were combating.
MLC:Although you mean well with your critique it lacks any real depth of thought and argumentation. You really confuse the incarnation. The sons mind is only god the son animating a body or possessing a body for show.
MLC:You on the other hand do not believe Jesus had a human spirit, will mind intellect but a God mind only. That is a pretend man and Docetism.
I find it ironic that you earlier attempt to quote the Council of Chalcedon as a means to demonstrate something contradictory about Trinitarianism, but then somehow miss the part where it explicitly predicates a human mind and spirit of Jesus in stating that each nature retains what is proper to it.
Is that four persons then? The fake man's mind(1) God the sons mind(2) God the fathers Mind (3) God the Holy Ghost's mind (4)
You are just giving lip service Jason. In Oneness there is only One Mind of God and 1 genuine limited man's mind, who by the way, is not Just a puppet.
Here is the debate where he(White) says God has 3 centers of consciousness.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HvxF7Js9mw8&google_comment_id=z133vjlwuozrufjpd04cfrvqasnmtr45igo
Wow you guys are really into this so deeply... I like what the Apostle Paul said, The simplicity of Christ... maybe that was Peter or John?? makes no difference who said it its scripture and I think we need to keep in the Simplicity of Christ... without Controversy great is the Mystery of Godliness...All of this Father, Son, and Holy Ghost philosophy is hogwash and confusing the real issue.. Jesus told us that unless you love him you will see but not see you will hear but not hear... Jesus said that the term "Father" is a parable and that one day he would show us plainly of this parable.John 16:25 ... Yes a parable not a person but an example of an atribute of God who is the Father of all things... Creator... He God the very one true God is also become our Salvation... its that simple... you do not have to become tangled up in philosophy and vain deceit..no need to be jumping all over the place to try to guard your philosophy... God is God and that God who is the True God became flesh and dwelt among us and how did we behold God who is in substance a spirit and in kind a Holy Spirit?? We behold him in his expressed image the Christ.... The Christ whose name is Jesus....The rest will fit into place once you realize who you are speaking about... God, Our Lord Jesus Christ help you to discover who he is.. Amen
Carl Halstrom, If you are saying the trinity is hogwash? I agree. Jesus did not say the term "Father was a parable." Jesus said when you see me you see the Father.(John 14:7-10,18) The Father is the only true God(John 17:30 and if Jesus is not the Father? Then he is not God period! There is no philosophy because you think you are the only on with truth..The only person I see using philosophy is you. "The father is a parable nonsense" That is philosophy. unbiblical philosophy.
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