One Trinitarain by the name of pluralforonegod writes and asks the following question:
"
Who Came Down From Heaven And Became A Man?
1. God the Father
2. Holy Spirit
3. The WORD (Jesus, Son)
4. All of the above
Please try and explain your choice with some comments...
Thanks
__________________
John 17:22...WE (Jesus + Father) are ONE... "
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My answer: Nobody came down from heaven and became a man.
My reasoning that God did not become a man: A dog that becomes a horse, is no longer a dog, but a horse. The Trinitarain or Oneness that makes this claim is using thoughtless imagery. God remained God but indwelt the man who remained a real human being, but it was not at all like a Christian who simply receives the spirit. The son of God was given the spirit by no measure and if it was given him by no measure then it is immeasurably his and to take away in any amount is measuring.
Jesus makes the statement *I came down from heaven*(They say is "God the son") not to do my own will, but the will of him(God the father) that sent me.(John 6:38)
So First off. It was not God's will, but it was God's will. Why would the same one God sent down from heaven have an opposing will within his one God-self? That does not sound like monotheism. And if he were the all, ever- present God, would he not already be there?
The Oneness view is that it is his own real human will submitting as a lessor being to the will of the ultimate being of God in the incarnation.
We see sent and coming language used of Jesus in (John 6:51) In the very same passage and context and explains what Jesus meant.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man shall eat of this bread,he shall live forever, and the bread I will give (which came down from heaven) is my flesh.
We see clearly from John 6:51 and again in verse 62 his coming and being sent was in reference to his flesh being provided as an atonement for our sins and it has nothing to do with "god the son" coming literally as another person from heaven. flesh.
The Word/Logos was not "god the son" in eternity either. A person would be hard pressed to find the term son in that passage and he was not the son until he was born of the virgin(Gal.4:4,Math1:20)
By the word/Logos of the LORD were the heavens made and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.(Psalm 33:6 Septuagint Greek of the OT.) The Logos was God's spoken, creative, expression and not another person of God.
Tyndale in his translation did not call the word a *he* as another person but rather an *it* likely saw the forcefulness of the psalm passage and applied accordingly.
What did Jesus mean in John 17;22 when he said: "we are one"? *We* does not refer to polytheistic persons in the Godhead but rather a real man incarnated by the real God. The Father that dwelleth in me he doeth the works(John 14:10)
I can of mine own real human self do no works(John 5:30)
5 comments:
Hebrews 10:5-7 When HE (Jesus)came into the world! (now I could stop there and preach a little while but Ill move on) He (Jesus) said Sacrifice and offering You (father) did not desire,but a BODY,You (father) have prepared for me (Jesus)!! Then I (Jesus) said, Behold I have COME!In the volume of the book it is written of ME,to do YOUR will O God!! Hebrews 1:8 But to the SON,He (father) saith thy throne oh GOD is forever and ever!! The Word is a HE!! Jesus Christ has always been and always will be! You say,WE are ONE,coming from heaven?? You almost got it,the WE are 1! Father and Son and Holy Ghost are 1 !! Me and my wife are 1 and the body of christ is 1! You think that means solitude? Composite UNITY (ONE)
Joey, The phrase:" when he came into the world." I want you to think about that for a moment? How else would the writer phrase that? I would leave it just as it is.
Jesus was God manifest in the flesh. There is nothing there about "God the son coming from heaven," you inserted that false doctrine into the text.
The passage is a prophecy of the coming son, that is why when Psalm 40:6-8 is quoted and is worded the way it is. Can you imagine the bodiless spirit o god jr talking to Sr with these words from eternity? Then the son(God) says I delight to do your(God) will. That makes two God's with opposing wills not persons! To Whom was the son preaching righteousness?(Verse 9)
Silly doctrine the trinity and full of contradictions.
Then you quote Heb.1:8 with your very bad polytheistic interpretation
But to the son he saith. thy throne Oh God is forever and ever. This is a view to the incarnation not one God talking with another god.
The conversation is between the real man and the real God that was in him and in heaven at the same time(Ever heard of omni presence. I do not think you would understand that since you do not have a real man but god jr. animating flesh.
The word was made a he! The word/Logos came from the breath of God's mouth. ( Logos Psalm 33:6 Greek of the O.T.Septuagint)
The word pertained to *he* God and could not be separated from God. what happened to the power of God's word at the incarnation according to you?
We are one (not!) coming from heaven. You inserted that false doctrine.
Jesus did not say: I and my father we are one "coming from heaven" you added that false doctrine..
Jesus said: said I and my father We are one. (because of the incarnation) not in spite of it! You are all full of false doctrine. One real man and One real God do not two persons of God make!
You and your wife are two persons in unity we do not have two persons of God in Jesus. In Jesus is one real man and one real God.
The one God is also called the seven spirits of God in Isa. 11:2 and Rev.5:6 if that be so, then Jesus is eight persons. Your doctrine is silliness.
I and the Father are one! Father make them one as WE are one!Since so many debate over just what is being said here,let me say what is not said!Jesus never says I am the Father!Jesus always makes destinctions between HIM and Father but never between Jesus and the SON! Why cause HE is the SON not the Father!This dual nature doctrine is heresy to say that Jesus is his own father!You have to twist and be taught from a old heresy to even think that!Are you a Modalist? And you can never get away from Jesus talking to himself,forsaking himself,praying to himself,telling his self how proud he is of himself!What I mean by dual nature doctrine is: the teaching that the Son is the humanity of Christ and somehow the human part communicates with the divine part of Christ (Father).Where is that teaching in the word of God?? Its not in there!Its a man made doctrine!Jesus says I am the Way the TRUTH!!Is He putting on a show when He prays acting out one part while He acts out the other!You have two persons in one body according to this doctrine and there is know way out but to go to your bible and say Its the person of Christ GOD-Man praying to the Father!If grammer means anything in the Word of God it DECLARES it! Its real simple,when the person of the SON is praying HE is praying to the person of the Father!!Jesus dont play mind games HE is the TRUTH (Thy Word is TRUTH) I declare to you that the Son (WORD)of GOD has always been!God loved you so much that HE created the world and everything init THRU the ONE this doctrine attacks saying HE was just a body the Father came and filled!If you have the SON you have it all,if you dont have the SON you dont have anything!Jesus says I AM,before Abraham I AM,He was before John the Baptist,He says Father Glorify ME with YOU with the GLORY I had with YOU before the world was! (I guess thats the two natures talking)Jesus declared and said I have always been!! John says Jesus has always been!! Paul confirms and says JESUS has always been!!This same Jesus was seen in the fire in Daniel! Isaiah saw Him!!Moses saw Him! (But no one has ever seen God) Let me say He is the Image of God seen thru out the old testament!Born a man in the New testament and you say NOPE He didnt exist before Bethleham! Hog wash! Elohim is singular Plural! Echad is one for unity!Let us make!Man has become as one of US!Let US go down!!Old testament is in harmony with the New!The onlything not in harmony is your oneness(Jesus only)doctrine! 3 bear reacord in heaven 3 are 1 (hello)Did God create all things by the SON?or is the bible a liar? With all the evidence showing that Jesus was with God and was God and the world was made by HIM.We can see now that Jesus is the SON and the Father is the Father! 1 God in United Unity!!Echad (one) Phil 2 tells and declares that Jesus being in the form of God thought it not robery to be eual with God !Thats one side of the verse!This shows Jesus with God just like John says in John 1!! Now other side of verse, it dont stop there,but made Himself of no reputation,taking on the form of a bondservant,and coming in the likeness of MAN!!Being found in appearence as a man!(Bethleham)He humbled Himself and came obedient to the point of death even the death of the cross!!WOW!! Picture begins in heaven then moves on to Bethleham then moves all the way to the cross!!Jesus the Son of God has always been and always will be. In HIM WE Win!!! God Bless
Joey, let me show you what is not said! where did I say anything about a **dual nature**? Please find that in any thing I have ever posted? If cannot(AND YOU CANNOT!) then all you are doing is repeating your bad Apologetic's from men who know absolutely nothing!
No I am not a "Modalist"! I reject that term that trinitarians have given Oneness. Some Oneness embrace But I reject it.
Joey you are spouting pure ignorance and Know absolutley nothing about the truth of the Oneness of God the real Heresy is the trinity and i will be glad to show you from the scriptures. Come to my debate group.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Trinity_vs_Oneness_Debate/?yguid=105899369
Yes the there is a distinction between the father and the son(The father is the deity that incarnated him and was still in heaven at the same time as God) The son was the flesh of God(Body, soul, an human spirit, mind and will) There is no God the son.
If you do not come and debate me I will no longer publish your posts as they are elementary and waste my time if all you want to do is preach about your doctrine and not listen to the other side.
Your post is nothing but ignorance of what we believe and we laugh at this kind of ignorant nonsesne.
I have to say I apologize if I said things you dont believe.I didnt want to have a straw man argument!I am looking forward to a debate with you!Every oneness I talk to teach the different mode view.You are the first that dont lean that way.God Bless
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