One Trinitarain by the name of pluralforonegod writes and asks the following question:
"
Who Came Down From Heaven And Became A Man?
1. God the Father
2. Holy Spirit
3. The WORD (Jesus, Son)
4. All of the above
Please try and explain your choice with some comments...
Thanks
__________________
John 17:22...WE (Jesus + Father) are ONE... "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My answer: Nobody came down from heaven and became a man.
My reasoning that God did not become a man: A dog that becomes a horse, is no longer a dog, but a horse. The Trinitarain or Oneness that makes this claim is using thoughtless imagery. God remained God but indwelt the man who remained a real human being, but it was not at all like a Christian who simply receives the spirit. The son of God was given the spirit by no measure and if it was given him by no measure then it is immeasurably his and to take away in any amount is measuring.
Jesus makes the statement *I came down from heaven*(They say is "God the son") not to do my own will, but the will of him(God the father) that sent me.(John 6:38)
So First off. It was not God's will, but it was God's will. Why would the same one God sent down from heaven have an opposing will within his one God-self? That does not sound like monotheism. And if he were the all, ever- present God, would he not already be there?
The Oneness view is that it is his own real human will submitting as a lessor being to the will of the ultimate being of God in the incarnation.
We see sent and coming language used of Jesus in (John 6:51) In the very same passage and context and explains what Jesus meant.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man shall eat of this bread,he shall live forever, and the bread I will give (which came down from heaven) is my flesh.
We see clearly from John 6:51 and again in verse 62 his coming and being sent was in reference to his flesh being provided as an atonement for our sins and it has nothing to do with "god the son" coming literally as another person from heaven. flesh.
The Word/Logos was not "god the son" in eternity either. A person would be hard pressed to find the term son in that passage and he was not the son until he was born of the virgin(Gal.4:4,Math1:20)
By the word/Logos of the LORD were the heavens made and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.(Psalm 33:6 Septuagint Greek of the OT.) The Logos was God's spoken, creative, expression and not another person of God.
Tyndale in his translation did not call the word a *he* as another person but rather an *it* likely saw the forcefulness of the psalm passage and applied accordingly.
What did Jesus mean in John 17;22 when he said: "we are one"? *We* does not refer to polytheistic persons in the Godhead but rather a real man incarnated by the real God. The Father that dwelleth in me he doeth the works(John 14:10)
I can of mine own real human self do no works(John 5:30)
Sunday, January 31, 2010
Monday, January 25, 2010
Only begotten (sired and born) son, or only begotten eternal son
The Trinitarian's claim from a variant reading of John 1:18 that Jesus was the only begotten God(Eternal son) as opposed to the other two un-begotten gods/Gods the term they say in the variant reading is Monogenes theos(Grk) or only begotten god/God.
This variant reading either teaches Polytheism(Belief in more than one God) because of the term God or it could be viewed in light of the incarnation. The term *person* that is frequently imposed upon scripture for the purpose of stopping queries of Polytheism is not found in the text the same could be said of Philippians 2:6....
The Oneness view is that Jesus was the Only begotten (Miraculously sired and born son of the
father and the virgin) and not eternally begotten in the sense that he pre-existed as another person(A term not even found in the text) but he would be eternally sustained in the sense that he was a a real man given the spirit by no measure as his flesh had a beginning.
The Trinitarian doctrine would make Jesus inferior as he is sustained by another.
Jesus, Just Like Issac was the Only begotten son of the promise even though Abraham had
two sons, one sired/begotten of the promise and the other of the flesh, not of
the promise.
One Trinitarian known as Limey Bob on the CARM boards writes the following concerning his view of the variant.
"In Greek begotten is 'gennao' (verb) and 'only begotten' (adjective) is monogenese. These are two different Greek terms which you are confusing, for you cannot take monogenese and then say that it means begotten as it does not; it means 'only begotten' or 'one and only' or 'one of a kind' and being an adjective implies a relationship and not an act of creation (which only a verb would imply). So when applied to God 'monogense' implies an eternal state just as at John 1:18 (becasue God is eternal), or else it implies a non-eternal state as at Hebrews 11:17 where Isaac is monogenese of Abraham."
Yes monogenes(pronounsed mono- ga- nase) means *only begotten.* Issac was the only sired and born son of the promise Just Like Jesus was the only miraculously sired and born son of god and the virgin birth.
Nothing is said from this writer about the literal virgin birth the writer is trying his hardest to hide in plain site as it does have to do with jesus literal flesh being the only begotten and he inserts his doctrine and actually disproves it or he has two beggetals.
This variant reading either teaches Polytheism(Belief in more than one God) because of the term God or it could be viewed in light of the incarnation. The term *person* that is frequently imposed upon scripture for the purpose of stopping queries of Polytheism is not found in the text the same could be said of Philippians 2:6....
The Oneness view is that Jesus was the Only begotten (Miraculously sired and born son of the
father and the virgin) and not eternally begotten in the sense that he pre-existed as another person(A term not even found in the text) but he would be eternally sustained in the sense that he was a a real man given the spirit by no measure as his flesh had a beginning.
The Trinitarian doctrine would make Jesus inferior as he is sustained by another.
Jesus, Just Like Issac was the Only begotten son of the promise even though Abraham had
two sons, one sired/begotten of the promise and the other of the flesh, not of
the promise.
One Trinitarian known as Limey Bob on the CARM boards writes the following concerning his view of the variant.
"In Greek begotten is 'gennao' (verb) and 'only begotten' (adjective) is monogenese. These are two different Greek terms which you are confusing, for you cannot take monogenese and then say that it means begotten as it does not; it means 'only begotten' or 'one and only' or 'one of a kind' and being an adjective implies a relationship and not an act of creation (which only a verb would imply). So when applied to God 'monogense' implies an eternal state just as at John 1:18 (becasue God is eternal), or else it implies a non-eternal state as at Hebrews 11:17 where Isaac is monogenese of Abraham."
Yes monogenes(pronounsed mono- ga- nase) means *only begotten.* Issac was the only sired and born son of the promise Just Like Jesus was the only miraculously sired and born son of god and the virgin birth.
Nothing is said from this writer about the literal virgin birth the writer is trying his hardest to hide in plain site as it does have to do with jesus literal flesh being the only begotten and he inserts his doctrine and actually disproves it or he has two beggetals.
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