James Swan of Alpha and Omega ministries one of James White's apologetic writers and contributors writes the following:
"It is very common to hear the remark, "What about Servetus?" or, "Who burned Servetus?" There are three kinds of persons who thus flippantly ask a question of this nature. First, the Roman Catholics, who may judge it to be an unanswerable taunt to a Protestant. Second, those who are not in accord with the great doctrines of grace, as taught by Paul and Calvin, and embraced and loved by thousands still. Then there is a third kind of persons who can only be described as ill-informed. It is always desirable, and often useful, to really know something of what one professes to know".
mlculwell: Paul??? Paul Never taught the "doctrines of grace" that they frequently force in their apologetic writings! As usual a Calvinist is being both pompous and presumptuous. Paul most certainly does teach us of grace but there is not anything in scripture that resembles their view!
Swan writes or quotes someone else: " I shall narrow the inquiry at the outset by saying that all Roman Catholics are "out of court." They burn heretics on principle, avowedly. This is openly taught by them; it is in the margin of their Bible; and it is even their boast that they do so. And, moreover, they condemned Servetus to be burned.
Those who misunderstand or misrepresent the doctrines of grace call for pity more than blame when they charge the death of Servetus upon those views of divine truth known as Calvinistic. Perhaps a little instruction would be of great value to such. It is very desirable to have clear ideas of what it is we are trying to understand. In most disputes this would make a clear pathway for thought and argument. Most controversies are more about terms than principles".
mlculwell: It is almost funny if it were not sad, it seems Calvinist justify Calvin's great sin and the Reformers by saying this was a law. What about the laws that protect abortion? Does it make it any less a sin to murder the unborn? Does it make it right for Muslim's to murder Christians because it is law in their countries? This is not sound reasoning it is an excuse for sin!
James Swan writes:" The third sort of persons are plainly incompetent to take up this case, for the simple reason that they know nothing whatever about it. Pressed for their reasons, they have to confess that they never at any time read a line about the matter".
mlculwell:Incompetent? The only "Incompetence" is the person who wrote the piece! What purpose would it serve to call a person incompetent? It is an attempt to appeal to those who see Calvin's writings as those on the same level as Scripture to not question said writings and sinful acts of their hero to then see him as the sinful murderous debase person that he actually was, as bad or worse as those murderous Muslim's who killed in the name of religion.
Someone wrote:Calvin tried to get the sentence mitigated to the quicker and more humane decapitation?
mlculwell:(can you imagine?) This must be how all Muslims feel about the poor Christian infidels.(Shaking of head) in disbelief someone would say such a thing, talk about incompetence to take up a case?
Showing posts with label Trinity. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Trinity. Show all posts
Monday, August 24, 2009
Tuesday, January 13, 2009
The first six questions of 60 questions on the Godhead
I attempted to answer some questions a trinitarain gave in reference
to Oneness tract that has been in circulation for may years. 60
questions on the Godhead or something to that effect, I do not reacall
the actual title. These are just the first six, Hopefully I will
answer more at my leisure and submit them to my blog.
Fred Shewmaker's answer to the Oneneness own question
Manuel Culwell's Answers to Fred Shewmaker
Oneness Question #1. "Is the word trinity in the Bible? No"
Fred Shewmaker
a. There is a difference between believing there are three who possess
deity and holding one of the positions recognized by theology as
trinity doctrine. Each of those positions is loaded down with baggage
which many who believe there are three who possess Godhead are
unwilling to carry.
b. The word trinity is not in the Bible neither was "prodigal" prior
to the publication of the New King James Version in 1979, but I dare
say the author of the questions prior to 1979 did not object to using
the word "prodigal".
mlculwell: "Three who possess Godhead"? The scripture teach the
Godhead(That which makes up God )All the Fullness of that; which makes
God, God, was In the man Jesus. Nothing was ever said by the tract
that Shewmaker attempted to answer or do we even find the idea in
scripture, it is a man made tradition. The tract asked a simple
question and answered that question Shewmaker felt the need to
interject his man made doctrine to try and make it relevant.
Oneness #2. "Does the Bible say that there are three persons in the
Godhead? No"
Shewmaker
It does not. The Bible simply identifies three who possess Godhead.
mlculwell: Three what? Three Gods? Three persons? Again This is
presumed dogma forced upon the scriptures.The bible says All the
fullness of the Godhead is in Him. There is only two more passage In
the KJB that uses the term and one of those says *HIS* eternal Power
and Godhead are without excuse being understood by those things which
are made. nothing ever even remotely says what Mr. shewmaker has put
forth.
Oneness #3. "Does the Bible speak of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Yes"
Fred Shewmaker
In ways which show that they are not the same being.
mlculwell: Mr. Shewmaker contradicts Trinity doctrine. Usually the
trinity doctrine teaches God is One being made of three persons. Jesus
was both a real 100% human being and the real 1oo% being Known as God.
Oneness #4. "Do these titles as used in Matthew 28:19 mean that there
are three separate and distinct persons in the Godhead? No, they refer
to three offices, roles, or relationships to humanity."
Fred Shewmaker:
a. Neither Father nor Son is the title of an office and therefore
there is no reason to think that Holy Spirit is such a title.
mlculwell: Nor does my relationship titles toward my family make me
"three persons of God". Mr. Shewmaker assumes, so we feel it only
right to do the same thing to show the ridiculousness of what he has
presented.
Mr. Shewmaker
b. The Bible does not use the word office, role nor relationships when
referring to any connection which the Father, Son or Holy Spirit have
with humanity.
Mlculwell: The fact of the matter is the Trinitarian's have no real
relationship within there view of the Father and Son except in name
only, (it is pretend, as the son is as old *eternal* as his daddy.)the
real result of their view would be more akin to eternal conjoined
twins and even more so, triplets.
Mr. Shewmaker
c. Matthew 28:19 deals with "the name of the Father and of the Son and
of the Holy Spirit," not offices, roles nor relationships to humanity.
mlculwell: (Matth. 28:19) does not deal with the single name of those
three titles.Luke also has an account of the great commission in Luke
124:47
Oneness #5. Does the Bible use the word three in reference to God?
Only one verse in the entire Bible does so-1 John 5:7. It speaks of
the Father, the Word (instead of Son), and the Holy Ghost, and it
concludes by saying, "These three are one."
Mr. Shewmaker
Due to the fact John wrote this, he should be an acceptable authority
regarding the meaning of the word "one." In John 17:21 he quoted Jesus
as praying for His apostles, "that they may be one, as You, Father,
[are] in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the
world may believe that You sent Me." Unless you think that Jesus was
praying for His apostles to become one being, we acknowledge that
"these three are one" does not mean they were/are a single being.
Mlculwell: We are told the son was in the father and the Apostles
would be in Jesus(as Jesus was going to be that spirit John
14:16-18,2nd Cor.3:17, Acts 2:36, ) the plural pronoun" Us" to whom
Jesus made claim concerning the father and son had nothing to do with
"multiple persons of God", but rather the spirit of God Joined to the
flesh of the son as One person, the same unity the Apostles were soon
to enjoy on the first Pentecost after the resurrection, although more
limited .(John 3:34,Eph. 4:7)
Oneness #6. "Does the Bible use the word one in reference to God? Yes,
many times. For example, see Zechariah 14:9; Malachi 2:10, Matthew
23:29, 32; John 8:41; 10:30; Romans 3:30; 1 Corinthians 8:4; Galatians
3:20; 1 Timothy 2:5; James 2:19."
Mr.Shewmaker:
a. Zechariah 14:9 does not even use the word God. It uses the word
LORD twice. What it teaches is that "'Yahweh is one' And His name
one." Yahweh (singular) is the Hebrew name of eloheem (plural) who in
the beginning created the heavens and the earth.
mlculwell: *The Plural of Attributes* not of "persons". In other
words, our one God who is all powerful.
Mr.Shewmaker:
Deuteronomy 4:35 and other Old Testament passages explain that "the
LORD (Yahweh - singular) Himself is God (eloheem - plural) there is
none other besides Him." Yahweh (Jehovah, LORD) is the singular name
of a plurality eloheem (God). The biblical doctrine of one God refers
either to the one plurality eloheem or to the singular Yahweh which is
the name of the one plurality eloheem.
mlculwell: This is the trinitaraian explanation of One God that has
been put forth as to not violate the strict monotheism that is seen in
scripture.The Hebrew word Elohim has absolutely nothing to do with
plurality of persons that is simply submitted as a plausible
explanation so that the tradition can continue. Satan/lucifer is also
called elohim are there more than one satan/lucifer?In reference to
satan he is neither a plural persons nor of all powerful
attributes.The term is not used in reference to multiple persons of God.
Mr. shewmaker:
b. Malachi 2:10 will be addressed when consideration is given to
question 14.
c. In Matthew 22:32 the word God is translated from the Greek word
theos. Matthew there quotes Exodus 3:6. In Exodus 3:6 the word God is
translated from the plural Hebrew word eloheem. There is one plurality
named Yahweh. Theos may refer either to separate beings of that
plurality or to the plurality as a unit.
mlculwell: Again, Mr. Shewmaker simply inserts his understanding of
the plural for God and assumes it is a plural of persons because it
fitss nicely with his doctrine.
Mr. Shewmaker:
d. John 8:41 "one Father--God" is not the same as saying one God. This
verse only shows the nature of the "one Father" to whom they referred
wah not that of man, but rather that of "God." Theos refers to one
being of the plurality - eloheem - "Father."
e. Regarding John 10:30 consider John 17:21. More later on this.
mlculwell:Let us go ahead and consider this now,the point being, that
God is in us, and the Apostles, in unity as one spirit, but that does
not make a plurality of "persons of God" no more than the Apostles
being joined in unity makes a plurality of God? One preacher asked; if
that is the same unity are we not God? Most certainly not! It is my
contention that God is in us in unity the same way that he is in Jesus
in unity, as a real human being, or man, but let me be clear, Jesus is
not another person of God. Well, then how would it be different and
Jesus still be God manifest in the flesh? The scriptures Teach the
Unity of the father and son is that God giveth not the spirit by
measure unto him(John 3:34) as Jesus humanity had a beginning and did
not exist from all eternity, therefor it is scriptural to say *God
gave* as in (Matth. 28:19) or *God made* in reference to Jesus as In
(Acts 2:36, 1st Cor. 15:45) as the Limited man could not do any of
those things or give or be made anything. The scriptures teach that
the spirit Given to the humanity of the son in the incarnation was
none other than God the father (John 14:10) the father that dwelleth
in me he doeth the works.
Monday, December 22, 2008
The Trinity and the Early Church: Debunking the Oneness Myth answering Ed Dalcour Once again
mlculwell:In Dalcour's submitted writings on his Department Of Christian which can be found here http://www.christiandefense.org/
which will, from now on be referred to as; DOCD. Dalcour offers absolutely nothing to disprove the Oneness doctrine from either (so called )church fathers or from scripture. I will deal with every so called church father he has submitted to disprove the Oneness doctrine or passage of scripture he thinks disproves our doctrine. Ed Offers the following passage.
Dalcour submits:
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all (2 Cor. 13:14).[1]
mlculwell: Dalcour thinks because three titles are mentioned in the above passage then we most certainly must have "three distinct persons of God". Not so! All three of these titles must be mentioned as they are three different aspects of God in relation to our salvation.
Allow me to explain; The One spirit, God(God the father who is *spirit (John 4:24) and is *Holy (Psalm 99:9 , 1st. Peter 1:15) thus God the father is the Holy Spirit) shows mercy and offers a one time sacrifice for all men (Not just all kinds of men only)through his *only human born son through the virgin birth,*Begotten, sinless son and then gives men, through that sacrifice, his spirit in men ,but it first the spirit must be purchased for that to happen through the sacrifice(There is an orderly way and method to God in his dealings with mankind and that is what the passage Dalcour submitted deals) We would not have salvation if it were not For God giving grace. I heard One preacher explain grace as God's Redemption @ Christ's Expense, GRACE. which I would most certainly agree. Do we have three persons of God with the passage? Most certainly we do not! we only have One god and one person dealing with mankind..God as spirit first
planned this
from the foundation of the world we see this
from many prophecies which I will not offer at this time but I will offer one from (Revelation 13:8 ) which states :the Lamb was slain from and before the foundation. certainly that was not literal but was the plan of God for future redemption.
Ed Dalcour
Virtually all non-Christian cults (esp. Oneness believers and Jehovah’s Witnesses) reject the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that the early church had no such concept of a triune God, but rather they held to a unitarian concept of God (i.e., God existing as one Person). Because of a great lack of study in the area of Patristics (i.e., church Fathers), these groups normally assert that the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity first emerged at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.
mlculwell: First of all Dalcour is being presumptuous to both set himself up as the final authority on who is a "non christian cult" and naming Oneness believers as such without a scriptural pattern for determining and making the unfounded remark, he simply is forcing his trinitarain view and presuming he has truth and that only those who deny the trinity doctrine are those who are cultic.
If in fact he(Dalcour) wants to prove his doctrine is true then it should be no problem for him to do a side by side comparison of the two doctrines according to scripture in a debate. It has been my experience Dalcour will cry foul and say "proper exegesis is not being done" on the part of those that are other than his ilk. This is simply his way of maintaining his self acknowledged expertise while excusing himself from discussion.
Dalcour also makes a fatal mistake in assuming those men from historical writings are preaching "truth" simply because they were closer to the time of the Apostles and Jesus historically If that is so there should have been no person or persons preaching false doctrine what so ever but we see different all through scripture, the first that comes to mind is Hymeneus and Philetus in (2nd. Tim. 2:17) To my knowledge we are not told to look to those men from history salvation is just too important Jesus said he would pray for everyone that would believe on him through their words(The Apostles John 17:17-20)
what is to stop others of doing the same thing? Who determines the historical writings from men as trustworthy to follow? What churches from history or writers are we to look, I say we have the compiled cannon, the intent of this writer is not to go into that debate which writings are the completed cannon as one must start from the idea the 66 books of the bible both Old and New testaments are God's words to mankind
Ed Dalcour
So vast is the evidence that the early church envisaged a tri-personal God and not a unitarian or unipersonal deity to which groups such as Oneness Pentecostals (as well as Muslims, Jews, and JWs) hold, that Oneness writers such as William B. Chalfant make desperate attempts to convince Oneness believes that the early church Fathers were really modalists
mlculwell:There is no "clear evidence" as Dalcour props up as fact, he simply takes writings from History and inserts his doctrine where he thinks a so called tri-personal language is used in reference to God from both history and scripture. One has to remember; he see's father,son and spirit as a" tri personal God" anytime, anywhere in scripture or historical writings where those titles are used it must prove a distinction of "persons of God" where Oneness views the language in relation to a man having different relationship roles to his family but not as three different persons. Even the term "trinity" may not be an exclusive term as to distinctions of God
(Oneness):
the trinity doctrine exists only on paper. . . . No apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ ever taught such a doctrine. . . . None of the immediate disciples of the apostles (e.g., Clement Ignatius, Hermas, or Polycarp) taught such a doctrine . . . Trinities Abound in the ancient, false religions. . . .[2]
mlculwell:Here Dalcour sets up a strawman that he thinks is both meaninful and relevant, it is only meaningful and relevant to Trinitarians who actually believe the writings highlight their view. I Like to ask the question to those who always submit history and "patristic writings" (so called)if we should add those writings to scripture?(What is that I hear?) They a are good read but they are not close to the same level as scripture, it is simply a ploy as there are many other teachings that Trinitarains would not touch with a ten foot pole it is al'a cart historic doctrine pool, take what you think is relevant and reject what ever does not apply.
Dalcour Writes:
With no historic justification, Chalfant (and others Oneness writers) conveniently assumes his conclusion that is meant to be proved, namely—that the early church Fathers were modalists! What I find interesting is that nearly every non-Christian cult uses this same line of reasoning, which is nothing more that patent historical revisionism.
mlculwell: The same charge can be made toward the Triniarian's, that will be more apparent when we actually deal with the historical writings Dalcour submitted.
Dalcour:
It is not surprising that the greatest and most authoritative Christian theologians and church historians[3] objectively disagree with the Oneness historical assumption that the early Christians in the days immediately following the apostolic age were Oneness.
mlculwell: It is not the concern of this writer as to what those (so called) "early Christians" were, immediately following the Apostolic age. The biggest concern is that we should model ourselves after what is written in scripture.
In carpentry you do not take lumber and then measure that one piece of lumber and then compare and cut all other lumber by using the first board, you would end up being way off the original measurement, you use the first measurement that was used on the first board and cut all others to the first measurement.
Jesus said the following; neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through *their words.*( John 20:17) who were the their words that Jesus referred? Was Jesus referring to the "early church fathers" immediately after the Original? Did Jesus tell us to look for the historical writings immediately following the Apostles? Absolutely not! This would be like ignoring the actual measurement and going straight for something else. To be fair, I think it is Dalcour's point that since they were so close to the original, that they absolutely must have truth and the correct measurement of what a 21st century church should look like. But what about those to whom we read in scripture that were actually there with the Apostles? A good example are Hymeaneus and Philetus in (2nd Tim.2:17-18) the original measurement is found in the New Testament and we are complete and thoroughly equipped (furnished) unto every good work.(2nd. Tim 3:17)
But we are most certainly not from the writings of history and if they are wrong then we are wrong.
Dalcour
Despite the fact that many church Fathers utilized first person plural references in the OT (“Our,” “Us”; cf. Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8) to substantiate that God was multi-personal, it was the Trinitarian baptismal formula (cf. Matt. 28:19) that was used and quoted by many early church Fathers to show that God was Triune. The evidence clearly shows that the early church conceptualized a distinction of Persons in the Godhead—they were not Oneness.
mlculwell: using first person plural in Gen. 1:26, 3:22,11:7,Isa.6:8 does not substantiate God was "multi -personal" from history or anywhere else because Dalcour thinks that is the case.
(Gen.1:26) Seems to be the single most used passage by Trinitarians to force such an interpretation, if this passage were isolated from all other passages then trinitarian's might have an argument but of course there are other passages that deal with creation and one of those creation passages are found in (Romans 5:14)
(Adam) who was the figure of him that was to come. Was it not Adam who was created in God's very image, and Likeness? *Figure* is the very meaning of the word likeness and alludes to God's image and likeness. God when he said; "let us make man in our image, after our Likeness." was referring to creating mankind in the coming incarnation and included the humanity of the son and not "God the son" when he said "let us make man" as there is no such thing in all of scripture. So that is was not three persons of God but that which purchased our redemption the sinless son of God whose deity was God the father)(John 14:10 and not "god the son."
Ed writes the following:
Apostolic Fathers
Some of the earliest writings that have come down to us are those that belong to the category of the “apostolic Fathers.” Many of these men were actual disciples the original apostles and leaders of the original churches. The few citations below (there are massive amounts!) plainly indicate their view of a triune God.
mlculwell: We shall see if this so.
Ed Dalcour:
The Epistle of Barnabas (c. A.D. 70):
Probably not written by the biblical character Barnabas, but whoever the author was the Epistle of Barnabas was written very early when some of the original apostles were still alive. Notice how the plural “Us” in Genesis 1:26 is used differentiating God the Father from Jesus:
And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God [the Father] said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men (Epistle of Barnabas, 5).
mlculwell: First of all, there is nothing here that refutes the Oneness view. Jesus most certainly is the *Lord of all* and God the father most certainly did say; "Let us make man after our Image, and after our Likeness." I would like to point out though, that none of these so called "pratristic writings" can be claimed exclusive to the Trinitarian group nor can they be used to prove one group over another that is simply pompously begged by Mr. Dalcour..The above says nothing of a trinity doctrine being claimed by the writer Barnabas, when the very unscriptural terms three persons of God and trinity are forced and used by historical writers that is where we take exception, if the writing throws up a flag to do so.
Ed Dalcour
Clement bishop of Rome (c. A.D. 96):
Clement of Rome wrote an epistle to the original Corinthian church. He was perhaps the same Clement who was Paul’s close companion mentioned in Philippians 4:3. In Clement’s salutation, he clearly distinguishes the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ:
The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied (Letter to the Corinthians, 1).
mlculwell: There is nothing in the above either to refute the Christian Monotheism Oneness doctrine. The purpose of the incarnation was to redeem mankind through humanity, because it was humanity that caused the fall from the garden, therefor it was not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away the sins of mankind but the sacrifice of his son through his body once for all.(Hebrews 10:4-10) it was not a fictitious unbiblical "god the son" that was able to do such a great thing otherwise it already would have been done before, but rather, the biblical sinless son of God through the sacrifice of his flesh purchased our redemption when the fullness of Time was(Ga. 4:4 it was God the father who ultimately made this all possible, there most certainly is a biblical distinction between father and son but it is not of multiple "god persons" but rather God who is spirit and flesh of his only begotten son through the virgin birth and for anyone to teach other than this must be held to the standard of the scriptures and not through (so called) patristic writings.
Dalcour writes:
Surely if Jesus as the Father (the Oneness view) was the “apostolic doctrine,” as Oneness teachers would like us to believe, why was Clement, who was perhaps Paul’s associate, clearly distinguishing the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ? Clement then refers to a very Trinitarian passage (Eph. 4:4-6):
Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? (ibid., 46).
mlculwell: First of all, there is not one Trinitarian passage in all of the scriptures and Dalcour is being presumptuous again, anyone can do that. Second( Eph.4:4-6) reads there is One Lord (Not three) One faith, One baptism, One God and father of *all* that is above all(Not equal)through all, and in you all. Nothing in the least Triniarian about that passage. Then there is absolutely nothing written by Clement that contradicts Oneness doctrine but even if we(Apostles) or an angel from heaven were to preach any other doctrine than what you have heard (contradict what was being taught and written by those to whom Jesus himself commissioned) we are told to let them be accursed.(Gal. 1:8-9) We are never told in scripture to believe in "multiple persons of god" or in a "trinity "doctrine that is a pompously assumed doctrine and everyone knows what happens when you assume and add to scripture things that are not there. Dalcour assumes that since
"one
God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace mentioned that gives license and green light to the trinity doctrine, the scriptures are filled with such threefold salutations and the Oneness view are not blind to those salutations.
please allow me to take this time to explain way those threefold salutations must always be included and in our remembrance, it is because God(The father) first provided our salvation and redemption as spirit gave mankind his only begotten son through time and not eternity(Gal.4:4) and as the son who did not exist beside, with or ortherwise and God the father came to man himself and robed himself in the flesh of His only begotten sinless son in the incarnation and redeemed mankind and gave all power without measure(John 3:34, Math. 28:18, 1st. Cor.15:45) to that son making him the one and only true God forever more, who also now has the glorified body always and forever. I am neither speaking of *Adoptionisms (*that Jesus was adopted into the sonship by an act of God)nor any other false doctrine.(such as Apollinarianism or Docetism) I will deal with the rest of Dalcour's writings in another post coming soon.
which will, from now on be referred to as; DOCD. Dalcour offers absolutely nothing to disprove the Oneness doctrine from either (so called )church fathers or from scripture. I will deal with every so called church father he has submitted to disprove the Oneness doctrine or passage of scripture he thinks disproves our doctrine. Ed Offers the following passage.
Dalcour submits:
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God,
and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all (2 Cor. 13:14).[1]
mlculwell: Dalcour thinks because three titles are mentioned in the above passage then we most certainly must have "three distinct persons of God". Not so! All three of these titles must be mentioned as they are three different aspects of God in relation to our salvation.
Allow me to explain; The One spirit, God(God the father who is *spirit (John 4:24) and is *Holy (Psalm 99:9 , 1st. Peter 1:15) thus God the father is the Holy Spirit) shows mercy and offers a one time sacrifice for all men (Not just all kinds of men only)through his *only human born son through the virgin birth,*Begotten, sinless son and then gives men, through that sacrifice, his spirit in men ,but it first the spirit must be purchased for that to happen through the sacrifice(There is an orderly way and method to God in his dealings with mankind and that is what the passage Dalcour submitted deals) We would not have salvation if it were not For God giving grace. I heard One preacher explain grace as God's Redemption @ Christ's Expense, GRACE. which I would most certainly agree. Do we have three persons of God with the passage? Most certainly we do not! we only have One god and one person dealing with mankind..God as spirit first
planned this
from the foundation of the world we see this
from many prophecies which I will not offer at this time but I will offer one from (Revelation 13:8 ) which states :the Lamb was slain from and before the foundation. certainly that was not literal but was the plan of God for future redemption.
Ed Dalcour
Virtually all non-Christian cults (esp. Oneness believers and Jehovah’s Witnesses) reject the doctrine of the Trinity and teach that the early church had no such concept of a triune God, but rather they held to a unitarian concept of God (i.e., God existing as one Person). Because of a great lack of study in the area of Patristics (i.e., church Fathers), these groups normally assert that the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity first emerged at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325.
mlculwell: First of all Dalcour is being presumptuous to both set himself up as the final authority on who is a "non christian cult" and naming Oneness believers as such without a scriptural pattern for determining and making the unfounded remark, he simply is forcing his trinitarain view and presuming he has truth and that only those who deny the trinity doctrine are those who are cultic.
If in fact he(Dalcour) wants to prove his doctrine is true then it should be no problem for him to do a side by side comparison of the two doctrines according to scripture in a debate. It has been my experience Dalcour will cry foul and say "proper exegesis is not being done" on the part of those that are other than his ilk. This is simply his way of maintaining his self acknowledged expertise while excusing himself from discussion.
Dalcour also makes a fatal mistake in assuming those men from historical writings are preaching "truth" simply because they were closer to the time of the Apostles and Jesus historically If that is so there should have been no person or persons preaching false doctrine what so ever but we see different all through scripture, the first that comes to mind is Hymeneus and Philetus in (2nd. Tim. 2:17) To my knowledge we are not told to look to those men from history salvation is just too important Jesus said he would pray for everyone that would believe on him through their words(The Apostles John 17:17-20)
what is to stop others of doing the same thing? Who determines the historical writings from men as trustworthy to follow? What churches from history or writers are we to look, I say we have the compiled cannon, the intent of this writer is not to go into that debate which writings are the completed cannon as one must start from the idea the 66 books of the bible both Old and New testaments are God's words to mankind
Ed Dalcour
So vast is the evidence that the early church envisaged a tri-personal God and not a unitarian or unipersonal deity to which groups such as Oneness Pentecostals (as well as Muslims, Jews, and JWs) hold, that Oneness writers such as William B. Chalfant make desperate attempts to convince Oneness believes that the early church Fathers were really modalists
mlculwell:There is no "clear evidence" as Dalcour props up as fact, he simply takes writings from History and inserts his doctrine where he thinks a so called tri-personal language is used in reference to God from both history and scripture. One has to remember; he see's father,son and spirit as a" tri personal God" anytime, anywhere in scripture or historical writings where those titles are used it must prove a distinction of "persons of God" where Oneness views the language in relation to a man having different relationship roles to his family but not as three different persons. Even the term "trinity" may not be an exclusive term as to distinctions of God
(Oneness):
the trinity doctrine exists only on paper. . . . No apostle of our Lord Jesus Christ ever taught such a doctrine. . . . None of the immediate disciples of the apostles (e.g., Clement Ignatius, Hermas, or Polycarp) taught such a doctrine . . . Trinities Abound in the ancient, false religions. . . .[2]
mlculwell:Here Dalcour sets up a strawman that he thinks is both meaninful and relevant, it is only meaningful and relevant to Trinitarians who actually believe the writings highlight their view. I Like to ask the question to those who always submit history and "patristic writings" (so called)if we should add those writings to scripture?(What is that I hear?) They a are good read but they are not close to the same level as scripture, it is simply a ploy as there are many other teachings that Trinitarains would not touch with a ten foot pole it is al'a cart historic doctrine pool, take what you think is relevant and reject what ever does not apply.
Dalcour Writes:
With no historic justification, Chalfant (and others Oneness writers) conveniently assumes his conclusion that is meant to be proved, namely—that the early church Fathers were modalists! What I find interesting is that nearly every non-Christian cult uses this same line of reasoning, which is nothing more that patent historical revisionism.
mlculwell: The same charge can be made toward the Triniarian's, that will be more apparent when we actually deal with the historical writings Dalcour submitted.
Dalcour:
It is not surprising that the greatest and most authoritative Christian theologians and church historians[3] objectively disagree with the Oneness historical assumption that the early Christians in the days immediately following the apostolic age were Oneness.
mlculwell: It is not the concern of this writer as to what those (so called) "early Christians" were, immediately following the Apostolic age. The biggest concern is that we should model ourselves after what is written in scripture.
In carpentry you do not take lumber and then measure that one piece of lumber and then compare and cut all other lumber by using the first board, you would end up being way off the original measurement, you use the first measurement that was used on the first board and cut all others to the first measurement.
Jesus said the following; neither pray I for these alone, but for them also that shall believe on me through *their words.*( John 20:17) who were the their words that Jesus referred? Was Jesus referring to the "early church fathers" immediately after the Original? Did Jesus tell us to look for the historical writings immediately following the Apostles? Absolutely not! This would be like ignoring the actual measurement and going straight for something else. To be fair, I think it is Dalcour's point that since they were so close to the original, that they absolutely must have truth and the correct measurement of what a 21st century church should look like. But what about those to whom we read in scripture that were actually there with the Apostles? A good example are Hymeaneus and Philetus in (2nd Tim.2:17-18) the original measurement is found in the New Testament and we are complete and thoroughly equipped (furnished) unto every good work.(2nd. Tim 3:17)
But we are most certainly not from the writings of history and if they are wrong then we are wrong.
Dalcour
Despite the fact that many church Fathers utilized first person plural references in the OT (“Our,” “Us”; cf. Gen. 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8) to substantiate that God was multi-personal, it was the Trinitarian baptismal formula (cf. Matt. 28:19) that was used and quoted by many early church Fathers to show that God was Triune. The evidence clearly shows that the early church conceptualized a distinction of Persons in the Godhead—they were not Oneness.
mlculwell: using first person plural in Gen. 1:26, 3:22,11:7,Isa.6:8 does not substantiate God was "multi -personal" from history or anywhere else because Dalcour thinks that is the case.
(Gen.1:26) Seems to be the single most used passage by Trinitarians to force such an interpretation, if this passage were isolated from all other passages then trinitarian's might have an argument but of course there are other passages that deal with creation and one of those creation passages are found in (Romans 5:14)
(Adam) who was the figure of him that was to come. Was it not Adam who was created in God's very image, and Likeness? *Figure* is the very meaning of the word likeness and alludes to God's image and likeness. God when he said; "let us make man in our image, after our Likeness." was referring to creating mankind in the coming incarnation and included the humanity of the son and not "God the son" when he said "let us make man" as there is no such thing in all of scripture. So that is was not three persons of God but that which purchased our redemption the sinless son of God whose deity was God the father)(John 14:10 and not "god the son."
Ed writes the following:
Apostolic Fathers
Some of the earliest writings that have come down to us are those that belong to the category of the “apostolic Fathers.” Many of these men were actual disciples the original apostles and leaders of the original churches. The few citations below (there are massive amounts!) plainly indicate their view of a triune God.
mlculwell: We shall see if this so.
Ed Dalcour:
The Epistle of Barnabas (c. A.D. 70):
Probably not written by the biblical character Barnabas, but whoever the author was the Epistle of Barnabas was written very early when some of the original apostles were still alive. Notice how the plural “Us” in Genesis 1:26 is used differentiating God the Father from Jesus:
And further, my brethren, if the Lord [Jesus] endured to suffer for our soul, he being the Lord of all the world, to whom God [the Father] said at the foundation of the world, ‘Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness,’ understand how it was that he endured to suffer at the hand of men (Epistle of Barnabas, 5).
mlculwell: First of all, there is nothing here that refutes the Oneness view. Jesus most certainly is the *Lord of all* and God the father most certainly did say; "Let us make man after our Image, and after our Likeness." I would like to point out though, that none of these so called "pratristic writings" can be claimed exclusive to the Trinitarian group nor can they be used to prove one group over another that is simply pompously begged by Mr. Dalcour..The above says nothing of a trinity doctrine being claimed by the writer Barnabas, when the very unscriptural terms three persons of God and trinity are forced and used by historical writers that is where we take exception, if the writing throws up a flag to do so.
Ed Dalcour
Clement bishop of Rome (c. A.D. 96):
Clement of Rome wrote an epistle to the original Corinthian church. He was perhaps the same Clement who was Paul’s close companion mentioned in Philippians 4:3. In Clement’s salutation, he clearly distinguishes the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ:
The Church of God which sojourns at Rome, to the Church of God sojourning at Corinth, to those who are called and sanctified by the will of God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you, and peace, from Almighty God through Jesus Christ, be multiplied (Letter to the Corinthians, 1).
mlculwell: There is nothing in the above either to refute the Christian Monotheism Oneness doctrine. The purpose of the incarnation was to redeem mankind through humanity, because it was humanity that caused the fall from the garden, therefor it was not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away the sins of mankind but the sacrifice of his son through his body once for all.(Hebrews 10:4-10) it was not a fictitious unbiblical "god the son" that was able to do such a great thing otherwise it already would have been done before, but rather, the biblical sinless son of God through the sacrifice of his flesh purchased our redemption when the fullness of Time was(Ga. 4:4 it was God the father who ultimately made this all possible, there most certainly is a biblical distinction between father and son but it is not of multiple "god persons" but rather God who is spirit and flesh of his only begotten son through the virgin birth and for anyone to teach other than this must be held to the standard of the scriptures and not through (so called) patristic writings.
Dalcour writes:
Surely if Jesus as the Father (the Oneness view) was the “apostolic doctrine,” as Oneness teachers would like us to believe, why was Clement, who was perhaps Paul’s associate, clearly distinguishing the Father from the Lord Jesus Christ? Clement then refers to a very Trinitarian passage (Eph. 4:4-6):
Let us cleave, therefore, to the innocent and righteous, since these are the elect of God. Why are there strifes, and tumults, and divisions, and schisms, and wars among you? Have we not [all] one God and one Christ? Is there not one Spirit of grace poured out upon us? (ibid., 46).
mlculwell: First of all, there is not one Trinitarian passage in all of the scriptures and Dalcour is being presumptuous again, anyone can do that. Second( Eph.4:4-6) reads there is One Lord (Not three) One faith, One baptism, One God and father of *all* that is above all(Not equal)through all, and in you all. Nothing in the least Triniarian about that passage. Then there is absolutely nothing written by Clement that contradicts Oneness doctrine but even if we(Apostles) or an angel from heaven were to preach any other doctrine than what you have heard (contradict what was being taught and written by those to whom Jesus himself commissioned) we are told to let them be accursed.(Gal. 1:8-9) We are never told in scripture to believe in "multiple persons of god" or in a "trinity "doctrine that is a pompously assumed doctrine and everyone knows what happens when you assume and add to scripture things that are not there. Dalcour assumes that since
"one
God and one Christ and one Spirit of grace mentioned that gives license and green light to the trinity doctrine, the scriptures are filled with such threefold salutations and the Oneness view are not blind to those salutations.
please allow me to take this time to explain way those threefold salutations must always be included and in our remembrance, it is because God(The father) first provided our salvation and redemption as spirit gave mankind his only begotten son through time and not eternity(Gal.4:4) and as the son who did not exist beside, with or ortherwise and God the father came to man himself and robed himself in the flesh of His only begotten sinless son in the incarnation and redeemed mankind and gave all power without measure(John 3:34, Math. 28:18, 1st. Cor.15:45) to that son making him the one and only true God forever more, who also now has the glorified body always and forever. I am neither speaking of *Adoptionisms (*that Jesus was adopted into the sonship by an act of God)nor any other false doctrine.(such as Apollinarianism or Docetism) I will deal with the rest of Dalcour's writings in another post coming soon.
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